This Guy Bought A Small Town & Turned It Into A Theme Park (#435)

Shaan Puri

It started off simple. He said, "I need a building," where they had kind of a warehouse or production. So, he bought one building. Okay, he outgrew that and bought a second building. He's from this very small town, Hamilton, Missouri, I think it is. So, you know, he buys two buildings and then at some point, they kind of realize, "Alright, why do this with like nameless, faceless warehouses? What if we could turn this into content or marketing?" Like, the YouTube channel's working, so what if we do kind of a YouTube behind the scenes? What if we make this more interesting? Instead of just buying two warehouses and then just, you know, operating in stealth, what if we bought all this land and all the buildings in this area and turned this into a tourist destination? A vacation, basically. So, it's a themed town in the middle of nowhere, but it's like the quilting mecca. People call it like the Disneyland for quilters. There are like 12 quilt shops on Main Street. Alright, what up? We got Ben Levy here. Sam is out today, but my business partner Ben is here. We got Producer Ben, who's Ben Wilson, and then we got Business Partner Ben, Ben Levy. Ben is here today, and we have a bunch of topics that we want to talk about. But first, welcome to the pod!

Ben Levy

yo what's up sean how's it going man

Shaan Puri

I'm good! Your dad, who's a regular listener, is going to be pleased because he's going to hear you on here. I'm sure he always sends you a huge text message of notes every time you come on. Is that right?

Ben Levy

Yeah, it's more like six emails. He'll be like, "Hey, did you hear Sean say this thing?" or "Did you hear Sam say this?" or "Suhui say this?" And I'm like, "Love the notes, Dad."

Shaan Puri

So, you were just in San Francisco last week. We did a bunch of meetings, hung out, worked a lot, and then we hosted a meetup. We hosted a private dinner. I wanted to start with that. So, give me as many nuggets of interesting things that came up: people you met, stories you heard, products you learned about—whatever you got from your trip to San Francisco. I'll let you take it from here. Take it away!

Ben Levy

Yeah, so the first thing that comes to mind is: 1. San Francisco is awesome, but 2. We went to the Warriors game We went to the Warriors game last Monday with this guy named Al Doan, who I think has been on the pod about 9 months ago. For people that don't know, Al is the founder of a quilt company. He said one thing... Sean, I'm sure you could talk more about Al, but I think the one thing that he said that was pretty interesting...

Shaan Puri

By the way, Ben just said "quilt." Because you said it in passing, I think people wouldn't even register what you just said. Actually, the way we met Al was pretty interesting. Patrick Campbell came on the podcast, and Patrick Campbell runs ProfitWell, which does SaaS payments analytics and all that good stuff. He has data on what companies are crushing it in terms of their subscribers and their payments. He had told us that quilting is a huge niche. When he came on the podcast, he mentioned quilting, and from that, we found Aldone, who basically runs a multi-hundred-million-dollar quilting business that he co-founded with his mom. So, that's the setup. But continue.

Ben Levy

Yeah, I think his mom and like his four brothers and sisters, so it's a family affair. The last time we hung out with him was at Camp MFM. I think Al's an interesting dude. One, he's like 6'7", so he towers over you. Every time I see him, I think he could've played in the NBA. But he said one thing that really raised an eyebrow for me. His business is doing great, but the thing he mentioned was that he's in the Harvard Executive MBA program. Now, most people, when I hear the word MBA, I immediately think it's stupid. I just think it's a waste of money, and you should go build something instead of getting an MBA. But he was like, "Yeah, I just hung out with the heir of Crystal Geyser water," you know, the place that produces basically every water bottle you ever see in the airport or convenience store. Sean and I were both like, "Wait, how do you know them?"

Shaan Puri

Well, he said, like, I think he mentioned that the woman is, you know, basically an old French couple or something like that. He was like, "Yeah, I was hanging out with my friend. My friend, she's French, she's older," and blah, blah, blah. I was like, "How do you have this old lady French friend? Where did that come from?" He's like, "Oh, I did this Harvard MBA thing." And Al's personality is not what you would connect with Harvard MBA. First of all, he runs a quilting e-commerce business, so that's, you know, not exactly a fancy pants Harvard thing. Secondly, he's this big dude with a beard who lives in the Midwest, and he's super funny. He's basically like, you know, Will Ferrell or Vince Vaughn. You just don't see him as a suit. But he did this suit thing, and we were like, "Wait, is that a good idea? Should I be doing that?" That was my takeaway from it. Yeah, I was like...

Ben Levy

We should definitely be doing that. I looked it up; I think it's like a $50,000 a year program. They take about 30 people, and everyone in there has a really successful business. So, we definitely should be doing that.

Shaan Puri

I think he said it's all people whose business... Yeah, I think like the minimum bar is like your business does $10,000,000 a year. So, you know, that's like the minimum sort of norm. He goes, "It's people from all around the world because international people value brands higher." Like, if you've ever seen a Louis Vuitton store that's just full of Chinese people, it's like international people really love American luxury brands. Harvard is an American luxury brand. And he's like, you know, I think he said it's 3 weeks a year for 3 years or something like that. He's like, "But dude, you make the best friends." You know, not everybody, but he's like, "I made a bunch of amazing friends through that." And he's like, "Dude, I'm in the middle of nowhere, Missouri, so I gotta do things that will connect me with other people." And then even this trip to San Francisco, we're like, "Oh, what are you in town for?" He's like, "Well, I live on a farm in the Midwest, so my wife is down for me to just take 3 days a month and just go to wherever—San Francisco, New York, LA—just meet up with friends and hear what's going on in the world so I don't stay totally disconnected in my bubble."

Ben Levy

yeah so yeah I think that was awesome that he does that I was

Shaan Puri

You should tell the Missouri Star because you wrote this newsletter on our personal newsletter yesterday about Al. You should share the highlights of his story.

Ben Levy

Yeah, no, the thing that you didn't mention earlier about Al is the way that we met him. Patrick Campbell mentioned him, and then I think I just DM'ed him and said, "Hey, do you hoot?" with no other context. And that was it. Then I was like, "I've never met you, but do you wanna come hang out in North Carolina?"

Shaan Puri

It's a weird question. Why did you ask that? Did you know he was tall, or did you just take a random shot? Like, do you play basketball? Come to our basketball camp!

Ben Levy

I think I looked on YouTube... I watched a video. Like, I heard of him, I looked on YouTube, watched like a minute video, and I was like, "He looks tall, seems like he has a good personality in this one-minute clip I found on YouTube." So I thought, "Hey, let's just get to business." I asked, "Do you play basketball?" And then he was like, "Yeah, I'll come." He was like, "I have no idea who you... I could barely know who you guys are, but sure, I'll guess I'll fly there and see."

Shaan Puri

Yeah, and he was amazing. His story is pretty cool. So basically, I think that the short version of the thing you wrote in the newsletter yesterday is this: If people go to my website, it's just my name, seanpruy.com. You can sign up for the newsletter, and you'll get this. It'll send you the story after a couple of emails. So the story is, his mom takes up quilting as a hobby. She's just having fun quilting, and then she wants to do, I guess, a more advanced quilt. For that, you have to send your quilt into a machine quilting company. Is that right? How does that work? Are there certain quilts you have to send in?

Ben Levy

Yeah, I think there are certain things that just need machinery. There was, I believe, a 6-month wait to get some machine-built quilt made. He was like, "Oh shit, there's a business here!" How is it a 6-month wait?

Shaan Puri

And he was just like, "There's too much demand." So he's like, "Mom, forget this quilt. You need to..." They bought the machine and thought, "Let's create a service company where we do this because it sounds like there's too much demand." They bought the machine and then made the website where they said, "Oh yes, send us your stuff and we'll do the machine quilting thing for you." Then, people started asking them for fabrics, so they began selling fabrics. People started asking them for patterns, and they started selling patterns. Fast forward, they've built this company called Missouri Star Quilting Company. It does, you know, **nine figures a year** in revenue—profitable, bootstrapped family business co-founded with his mom. They sell about **30,000 fabrics** for sale now on the website. I was like, "Dude, what was the turning point? Did this work right away?" And what did he tell you? He said, "Oh, I started... I posted on Facebook like, 'Hey guys, I made this quilt website for my mom. Check it out.' It's got like **two likes**."

Ben Levy

Yeah, and I went back and looked at all of his Facebook posts yesterday. It's like, "I started a quilt company, buddy," and that was like his milestone in his life 15 years ago. They must have figured something out.

Shaan Puri

Well, it sounded like the thing that made it take off was he got his mom to start making YouTube content. He was like, "Oh, YouTube was still pretty early at that time." He's like, "Alright, Mom, record videos teaching people how to be better at quilting." Now, they have the number one quilting channel with almost 1,000,000 subscribers. Jenny, who's his mom, is beloved. The comments are just like, "Jenny is the best! She's so wholesome. Oh my God, I love her!" She's a star. So, the YouTube thing took off, and then he went and stole the idea from Woop.com about having one crazy daily deal. Something that's like 50% to 100% off, but it's limited quantity and limited time. They call it the Quilter Daily Deal or something like that. That trained people to just keep coming back to the website to see, you know, what amazing deal they could get for some new pattern. Those two things were pretty major growth hacks that they pulled off to grow this thing.

Ben Levy

and he might just be the most successful like daily deal site ever right like in terms of profitability

Shaan Puri

Yeah, I don't know how big Groupon is now, but you know, what he did is bigger than Woot. So, you know, that kind of worked. Then the other thing he told us about was his town. So, explain this town and what he told us. Like, think about how he thinks about this town thing.

Ben Levy

Yeah, so basically when we discovered Al, we realized that he had a town. It was written about in NPR and a few other places. Essentially, what it is, he needed a bunch of production done, so he needed a manufacturing facility for all the clothes they were selling. So, they bought a town. This means they own a few restaurants, a few gas stations, and a few manufacturing facilities. They made it the **quilting capital of the world**. It's where people go when they want to learn about, seek, and use quilts. So, he's basically like... really, I think he's the pioneer of towns. I think he talked about this in the podcast a while back, but he's all into towns. Yesterday, he was texting us even more ideas about towns.

Shaan Puri

well it it it started off simple so he was like I need a building where they had like kind of a warehouse or production so he bought one building okay outgrew that bought a second building and he's from this very small town hamilton missouri I think it is and so you know buys 2 buildings and then at some. They kinda realize alright why do this with like nameless face less warehouses what if we could turn this into content or marketing like the youtube channel's working so what if we do kinda youtube behind the scenes and what if we make this more interesting so instead of just buying 2 warehouses and then just like you know operating in stealth what if we just bought all this land and we bought all the buildings that are in this area and we turn this into a tourist destination a vacation basically so like it's a themed town in the middle of nowhere but it's like the quilting mecca or or like people call it like the disneyland for quilters and there's like 12 like main street is all about quilts it's just like quilt shop quilt shop quilt shop and and then they have like the missouri star 1 which is the biggest store so that's their retail flagship store they use this to create content to create interest people then like take a a pilgrimage a trip to go visit here if that's their main hobby if that's their big hobby it's like oh here's the here's the vacation I wanna go on and when they're there they also have man what is it called man's land it's basically like if you're the dude who got dragged to this quilting vacation they have one area called man's land which is like really comfy recliner chairs tvs food and it's just like yeah you hang out over here and watch football and let her you know let let grandma go crazy at the the the quilt shops and so creating that town I think is kind of amazing he said that they have a 100,000 tourists come there every year which is which is you know still kind of relatively small but he's like yeah dude we just need like a developer to build a hotel like there's just no place to stay and he's like you know nobody knows about this area but I'm really he's really bullish on turning the the the sort of the cost center into a marketing a marketing tool and I think that was really really smart

Ben Levy

and what wanted to tell everyone about the town that you were thinking about yesterday

Shaan Puri

well we asked him we were like dude that's I was like dude that's genius what else would you do he goes got it babyville usa I was like what and he's like so he's got 4 kids or he's about to have his 4th I think and and he's like yeah basically I think you could make a town for all things baby so let's say you're a pregnant mom or you just you just delivered you're in your you know maybe you have a newborn a 1 year old a 2 year old so most you know traveling is hard first of all for either break late pregnancy or or you know early kids and nothing is optimized for them like even places like disneyland and like places that are like kid friendly it's like ages 3 and up really it's like what's what's like acceptable and useful and so he's like dude if we made this town where you could come and it's like some combination of like just a crazy spa for mom mom deserves it like she is her body's going through a lot she's not sleeping not all this stuff let's take care of her let's have the best sort of most baby friendly places whether it's restaurants retail whatever it is let's basically let you try any baby products so like there's like the the mass stroller store where it's like you're gonna get the best stroller we're gonna it's like you have the consultants there you have a testing ground you know this is where you're gonna find the best products and you get to test them you get to learn about them and it's like a it's like an expo for all things baby so you're gonna sell a ton of product you're gonna provide a vacation or rest you're gonna be the most baby proofed and baby friendly everything is gonna be optimized for that type of clientele and you can also do a bunch of fun things so he's like dude stroller races you know he's like you know we could he's like this would be such amazing like funny content that you could do around this whole thing baby so he's like baby phil and and it's it's kinda true because like we just hired a guy and he's like oh yeah can I start after this date because I'm I bought my wife a a push present and a push present for those who don't know is like you know after you deliver you basically it's like here's a gift or a vacation you know to celebrate you know putting yourself through one of the hardest things ever which is like you know labor and and so I think baby moons are a thing push presents are a thing I think there's already a whole bunch of like the culture around this stuff and so if you made the instagram worthy town for that I think that could be big I'm I'm really hoping he does this because I want this yeah

Ben Levy

And I want the baby combine. I feel like I'm so competitive, and so many of my friends are like...

Shaan Puri

you

Ben Levy

I don't care about how I stack up to people my age, but I do care about what percentile my son is in for height and weight. How fast is he? Is he crawling? I remember when my son was about 1, we would just watch other kids on Instagram and decide who looked like they were in better shape.

Shaan Puri

yeah just compare yeah

Ben Levy

so I wanna I think that's a great idea and I still

Shaan Puri

yeah a baby vocabulary contest baby crawling contest

Ben Levy

yeah

Shaan Puri

Like a crazy horoscope thing where we give you a scroll that tells you the future of your baby for $100. I could think of a million things to sell in this town.

Ben Levy

I love that and like what else

Shaan Puri

so we had al we go to the game what else did you got

Ben Levy

Another guy that I met up with was this guy, Justin Kalbeck. For people that don't know, Justin Kalbeck is one of the best angel investors of all time. He led the Snapchat seed deal and the Pinterest seed deal. He does have kind of a checkered past; I think he was essentially canceled. He was at Lightspeed and was canceled, I don't know, 3 to 4 years ago. Now, he's writing seed checks as a GP. So, I basically met up with this guy. I had talked to him a bunch on Twitter, and he said a few things about investing that I thought were particularly interesting and worth thinking about. The first was a question: "Are you a good investor?" What's your answer to that, Sean? Do you think you're a good investor?

Shaan Puri

I think there are two things you can't know yet, so I can't say anything definitive. You only get measured, I don't know, seven years after you start investing. So the honest answer is, I don't actually know. I do think I will do well with investing because I have a good network and good judgment when it comes to which startups have legs and which don't. I'm aggressive, so what I lack in IQ, I make up for in guts. I think those three factors will result in a great outcome for me.

Ben Levy

and then the other question that he kind of asked is like can you define did you

Shaan Puri

Say, when he said that, by the way, that's a great question to ask somebody: "Are you even good at what you do?" It's a fantastic question. What did you say? Did your butt clench? Did you know what to say in that moment?

Ben Levy

I said, "I don't think I'm great. I think I could be great if I try." I'd be sad. That's what everyone says. And I said, "Yeah, but I think I could." Then he was like, "Well, okay, answer me these questions then. Can you defend every deal that you've kind of pushed to the table for without saying these two words: 'great founder'?" He was basically like, "I hate when someone tells me they're investing because it's a great founder. That's something that nobody can argue you on, even if they know the person. Because they're just like, 'I can argue you on market. I can argue you on product. I can argue you on, you know, 10 other things, but I can't argue you on great founders.' So, can you defend every deal you've done recently without saying those two words? What's your answer to that question?"

Shaan Puri

Can I defend every deal? Yes, I can explain why we did every deal. Would I defend every deal? No, because I think we've made mistakes along the way. We did deals or deal sizes or valuations that, knowing what I know today, I could say, "You know, that wasn't a good decision." Going back, with the benefit of hindsight, I would think about that differently now. But I think that's natural. There's no way that you could get into anything, whether it's starting a new activity, a new job, or a new hobby, and from day one be flawless. Hell no, right? Now, could you have a line of thinking on everything you did? Yeah. Here was my line of thinking. Was my line of thinking always correct? No. Here are some errors I made. One, I would say, is the "Oh, but I love this business. I hate the valuation, but I love this business." I think that is a pretty common mistake. Even though it sometimes works out, like we invested in a company that was valued at $200 million. I invested because I had been trying to invest since the seed round, but I hadn't gotten in. So I was kind of anchored to this lower price, and now it's a multibillion-dollar company. So our investment is still up, I don't know, 40x. So it's a great investment from a return perspective.

Shaan Puri

Of view, but honestly, it was a pretty dumb investment. My only out was that this company would go from $200,000,000 to a multibillion-dollar company. Even though at the $200,000,000 mark, I thought it was overvalued based on where the revenue was. I think I got lucky on that more so than it being the correct decision. I believe that's the case for a bunch of things I did, where the difference in your outcome when you invest at an $8,000,000 valuation versus $18,000,000 versus $50,000,000 versus $80,000,000 is just really, really profound. The better move is to stay disciplined. Don't chase the higher valuations; just pass even on a good deal because you want to deploy all your dollars at the lower valuations. That way, when you hit, you hit super, super big. We did another investment that was at a $5,000,000 valuation, and now it's at, I don't know, $300,000,000 to $400,000,000. It may end up at the same multiple as the first deal I talked about, but the second one was actually using sound logic and judgment, while the first one was chasing something that I wanted. I only had one possible way to get a good outcome out of that.

Ben Levy

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think he thinks similarly. The only thing he said that I intuitively knew but never really thought about is how many deals he looks at a week. Now, he's talking to 100 to 150 founders every single week, which I think is just like a to-do. Maybe he does one deal a month at most, so maybe he's doing one out of 600 things he talks to. The thing he said that I thought was interesting about that was, you know, you kind of notice what good and great is. There are a ton of people you meet that are in the good category in terms of founders. They're really smart people building interesting things with great backgrounds. But there are very, very few people you meet that are great. I think that was a learning for me: being disciplined to only do deals when you think they're great. I think this applies to more than just angel investing; it kind of applies to everything. Most of the time, you know what great is, but you just get impatient and go for good.

Shaan Puri

Right, and I think his portfolio is pretty nuts. By the way, Grubhub, Snap, Opendoor, Stitch Fix, Whatnot, Imperfect Foods, Boom Aerospace... you know, these are some pretty solid ways, especially if we got in our... yeah.

Ben Levy

And I think, you know, obviously he was canceled. They were Me Too for a reason. So, like, I don't... I can't say he's like the best dude personally, but obviously he's a great investor.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, you know, it's hard to know what happened in certain situations. I don't know... I try to, for better or for worse, my thought when I meet people is this: when somebody tells me how great someone is, I don't assume that they're perfect. And when somebody tells me how horrible someone is, I don't think that they're evil and terrible. I sort of take people at face value. So, I meet them, I ask them about the situation, I hear the story, and then I see how they treat me. I observe how they treat the other people around them, and I kind of just use that as my filter rather than getting caught up in this sort of stuff. I also have friends that I think are great in one area of their life, and I can learn a lot from them in that area, whether it's investing, business, fitness, or whatever. And they're not so great in other areas of their life. Rather than sit there and judge them, I just try to focus on that one area where they excel. I try to learn from them on that and I move on. You know, I don't really get too caught up in the full picture.

Ben Levy

Yeah, 100%. And then in terms of, you know, other things I took away from San Francisco... There was one other thing that we did that I took a lot away from, which was we had a small dinner with about 10 people. I had no idea really what to expect. Like, I went in cold, basically knowing none of these people. So Sean, you want to set the table for what that dinner was like?

Shaan Puri

Yeah, we hosted a dinner at F Dot Inc, which has a great office in Fort Mason, San Francisco. We invited about 12 or 13 people, something like that. I would say some of them knew each other, but most people didn't. So, it's one of these very San Francisco things. It's like one person curates the guest list and they're basically saying, "Trust me, these people are cool." Then everybody else just goes on that assumption. If you ever violate that, it's like, "Dude, I went to this one dinner this guy hosted and people were not cool." You're just like, "Alright, they're out." But as long as you can successfully curate this, you could sort of build a really cool community and brand around it. So, we invited some people. The conversation was basically... I think you know, I saw your face at one point. Because in the most San Francisco thing possible, the conversation quickly shifted to drugs. But not like party drugs, but like, you know, people in services love this. Like, "Oh, I microdose this thing," or "I do ayahuasca," or "I do DMT," or "I do mushrooms, you know, for productivity." Like, all this other stuff. "I do this instead of therapy," or "I do this in addition to therapy," or "I do this to help my productivity." And it's like, "Bro, can you just drink coffee? Why do we have to do all this?" Are you sure that's like... you know, my feeling? Because I'm a more straight-arrow guy. I just don't do any of this stuff. But that was, you know, that was a pretty heavy part of the conversation at the beginning. Then it transitioned from there. But what was your take on the drug convo?

Ben Levy

Yeah, I mean, you know, I've been someone that's always... I haven't done anything, but I'm not incredibly opposed to it. My take was that it just seemed like that's what most people were focused on. Most of the people in that room were really successful, and the thing they were focused on was figuring out, in some ways, how to be happier. That's kind of what it boiled down to: how do I be happier and how do I have better relationships with the people that matter? It's always odd to be in those rooms where everyone seems like they have everything they possibly want. Right? Like, I'm probably the least wealthy person in that room, the least well-known person in that room. So, I find it interesting that people are resorting to that type of thing, and maybe there's a lot of growth to be had. The other thing that I took away from it is everyone talked about this thing called "touchy-feely," which I think is a Stanford class. Basically, you boil the leadership class down to... yes, everyone's talking about how to be a better leader and how to really connect with people. The one thing I wrote down in my phone was, "I'm an asshole," so I remember it. Their take was that this is really what all these things boil down to: recognizing that you're the asshole in every situation. Then I remember afterwards thinking, "I don't know, maybe I'm just an asshole to everyone for these kinds of reasons."

Hubspot

I think the line was every great marriage comes down to one realization I am an asshole and once you realize that and you accept that it humbles you but it also it it it's sort of like you understand the other person's side because damn they're dealing with this asshole I thought that was like a really I don't know if I believe that but I thought it was a great line there was one part on the so the the the drugs part I thought was interesting because it was like some of these things that are taboo today become very normal 10 years from now and silicon valley is usually at the the front of that curve and you're right it was stunning I mean this is a very successful group of people there wasn't a person in that room who wasn't wealthy successful all that stuff and I would say what 40% of the people at that table had experimented with some version of a like I don't know what you would call it hallucinogenic type of drug in order to try to be happier you know happier less anxious or better in their relationships and that's just a crazy ratio to me you know that's a that's a wild ratio that's a very san francisco a ratio that you get and sometimes san francisco is just off the reserve off the reservation and sometimes they're ahead of the curve and that's pretty hard to figure out which one's which you know it's just this these are the same people that in you know 20 2012 we're we're talking about bitcoin and this is the same group of people that you know whatever they're like you know experimenting with ai 4 or 5 years ago you know so they are the the the hard part is you can't write it off because often these are people that are that are right in a bunch of areas the more the touchy feely thing I thought was cool because they said that one framework for communication I think that's probably worth worth saying which was so they're talking about how great this touchy feely thing is and of course my natural question was like wait so like like what like what did you like what's an example you're saying how great this was and how it changed everything for you like what's an example and our friend siki siki chen who now runs runway gave this great framework he goes they teach you that there's what was it 5 layer 5 layers of communication and so let me see if I can remember this off the top of my head so he's like the first one when you deal with people you're gonna be at one of these 5 layers so it's like level 1 or layer 1 is ritual this is like you know you walked you walk into the office hi hey hi you know hey what's up what's up you know like just like it's automated it's not like it's just a ritualistic thing you're just a quick quick hello then there's number 2 which is extended ritual which is hey how's it going how's your day you know what's new these things that you you say it's an extended version of the ritual you don't really care or you're not really asking the question you're not really expecting anything nor are they really telling you what's going on in their life it's sort of this like just this dance we we do the 3rd level is you're talking about some content but it's surface content so at the 3rd level surface content is you're talking about a project you're talking about something you're working on or something you're doing something that's happening you're talking about the game you're talking about the you know the project whatever it is and what he basically said was like you know most of our communication just happens at these three levels every day but the problem with it is imagine in every interaction there's 2 tracks so on the on the your left hand is the track of like the content of the conversation and on the right is the relationship between the two people and at these first three layers the content might be moving but the relationship is not moving relationship the relationship is not being invested in and so if you wanna be somebody who's better at building relationships like you don't you need to get out of just these first three layers and get to number 4 4 and 5 4 is feelings about the content so how do you feel about what's going on right I feel stressed about this project I feel worried about this thing I feel so excited about this game tonight you know whatever it is and you're sharing a little bit about what's inside for you how you're feeling about the thing not just talking about the thing so that's that's better that moves it forward because you're there's some vulnerability there and then the last one is feelings about each other which is dude you know I felt disappointed when I expected this was gonna happen but actually this happened or I felt annoyed or I felt frustrated that we keep ending up in the same loop and being able to share that is obviously the the the the saying how you feel about the other person and I said negative ones but it could also be the other way like you know I feel you know I love working with you I love alright you know I had so much fun I felt you know tons of joy when we were doing x y z so you can sharing how you actually feel about the other person is the hardest one but when you do it that's what moves that other track the furthest and and he talked about like the little nuances like instead of saying I feel like blank blank blank every time you say like you took it away from how you actually feel it's just I feel blank or I felt blank is the right way to do it so I thought that was pretty cool because that stuff it's hard to learn anywhere like school or whatever and it sounded like that you know you talked about the harvard business school thing that was one note and the other one was this stanford touchy feely thing as like oh that sounds pretty cool I should check that out or or you know I wanna get better at that this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated woah I can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a task from 3 days ago I totally missed hubspot grow better

Ben Levy

And you told a great story, basically about your experience doing that same thing at the prison. You really should tell that story.

Shaan Puri

yeah so alright so once once upon a time I I get an email from my boss and this is a guy michael burt so he was basically the the main investor in our company and he was kinda like my mentor when I moved to silicon valley I moved here to work with michael michael burch built multiple successful internet companies that's what I wanted to do so I was like I wanna learn from this guy and I always I don't know if other people feel this way but whenever I'm around somebody who I really admire or I really like like I feel an intense pressure to just like do good in that do good in that setting like I just always wanted to like put my best foot forward if it was a meeting I wanted to look smart if it was a a social situation I wanted to be mister charisma and like be the be this they brought me to this event I wanna have the best conversation and sometimes that's okay that's natural but often it felt forced and it was just a lot of stress so anyways he's he emails me this thing says hey come with me to this this I did this event and I want you to come to it you know don't ask too many questions just come he's like it's friday at this time just show up and so I show up and what he signed me up for was this group called inside circle I think it's called and basically they take a group of kinda like silicon valley ceo type people a group of men from from the business world and they bring them inside of folsom prison and they take you to meet inmates who are in prison for life so they have a life sentence and so you go to this sort of like I don't know if it's maximum security or whatever but you go to this like intense prison and you're gonna meet with people who are in prison for life if you're in there for life you did something that's you know murder or you know sort of equivalent and and so I'm like oh shit and he's like yeah it's a 2 day event it's like an overnight event I was like what the hell alright thanks michael so I go to this thing we walk in and I don't I still don't really know what to expect I'm like are we giving a talk is this like an entrepreneurship talk like what what are we trying to do here so I'm prepared for like some presentation or something like that but instead we walk in the guys all get uncuffed we all walk in together and we all sit in a circle and I'm like oh this is a feelings thing oh shit this is like you know this is like aa or something I don't know what I got myself into but my my brain is racing and when the guys are walking in you know I'm I'm like it's kinda like scoping everybody out and there was one guy who walked in that just stood out right away he was wearing sunglasses and he had a cane but he wasn't blind so I was like I don't know how this dude has this privilege to like be able to have a stick that he walks around with and sunglasses but this guy's got clout immediately you could tell and he was the only guy who was like not smiling not talking to anybody he had like 2 guys around him who like kinda escorted him to see brought him a a clip of water and I was like oh shit this is the guy who like runs the prison got it I've seen movies about this shit I know how to like spot the alpha this guy's the alpha and so the event basically starts as follows they go break them into like smaller circles you know groups of 6 and and you know this guy who's been here he's the facilitator he'll he'll begin so break them into groups of 6 of course I get paired in a group with this thinking the tough guy and I'm like alright what do I have to do here what do I need again what am I trying to trying to do to like you know do well in this situation and basically the group was sort of like well the the activity was sort of like you just each person goes around you just say what's on your mind 1st guy gets up and he tells this super intense situation that he's in he's like right now I'm feeling frustrated man I'm feeling pissed feeling angry I'm like oh fuck he's like I'm feeling angry because my daughter who's on the outside told me that you know she had been sexually assaulted and I'm pissed that I'm not there to beat that guy's ass and then you know protect her and and so this guy tells us like really intense thing and then I'm like oh shit and then the next guy says an even more intense thing and 3rd guy says this really traumatic he's he's working through this really traumatic experience by the 3rd person I'm no longer listening I'm in my head and I'm I'm doing the math I'm like okay I'm 3 people away what am I gonna say and like I mean look at me I'm wearing a mickey mouse shirt right now I'm like you know my parents love me my life is pretty good I'm healthy I'm happy and all of a sudden I'm like goddamn it parents why did you have to love me I don't have shit to say here like I I couldn't you have just had a drug problem and made this a little easier for me like what am I supposed to say that's not gonna stand out like a sore thumb like I can't be like the biggest problem in my life right now is we have this deadline for this thing we're trying to this new feature we're building by friday and I I just don't know if we're gonna hit it guys like you know that's it's not gonna fly here so I'm like fuck fuck I'm panicking and I'm not listening at this.

Shaan Puri

It it keeps going around the circle finally it gets to me and I'm like okay I just gotta tell this like this kinda like this the most traumatic thing that's happened in my life whatever I guess I'm a say it to these strangers and I'm gonna kinda ham it up a little bit and and really like you know just try to deliver this I essentially start performing and so I I tell this thing about some family thing that happened in my past and I'm like doing these dramatic pauses and I'm like you know not like pretending to cry but I'm definitely pretending to feel it a little more than I was actually feeling it in that moment I tell the story and I told it good I'm a good storyteller and so I'm like I brought my a game because I was under pressure I told a great story and I'm like alright thanks you know thanks to y'all for listening and onto the next and then the hard guy goes man that's some bullshit and I was like oh no what what's happening and I go what and he goes man that's some bullshit man you're just saying that shit I go no that really happened he goes I don't care if that happened he goes you ain't really feeling that and so this guy basically instantly sniffed me out in a way that very few people can really tell you know when I'm bs ing like that and now I'm feeling like am I gonna get beat up like what's gonna happen here this is a worst case scenario the hard guy is like just like went out of nowhere he didn't say this to anybody else in the group but for me he's like that's some bullshit man he was like out he was like out on me and he goes he said something he goes like he goes I go what do you want me to say he goes he goes I want you to say what's on your mind well you know what you're really feeling and I go I'm feeling nervous he goes why I go because I want you to like me like the truth came out I was like I want you to like me which is it was the honest situation and I'm like oh my god what did I just say the lamest possible thing that one man can say to another and he paused and he just goes that show truth and he like accepted it he goes that's the truth man and he got up and he like got it he like came up to me whatever and we like whatever he's like you know I I appreciate you for telling your truth he hugged me and he sat back down and I was like what just happened he's laughing now this guy had it cracked a smile the whole time and he just thought it was so funny that obviously he scared me shitless which he did and he got me to break which he did but it also showed me like like you should just you know lead with the truth it's a lot easier than trying to perform but yeah that was my like touchy feely touchy feely like intense experience

Ben Levy

Yeah, that's basically what "touchy-feely" is, right? It's just like trying to get to the core of what you're actually feeling or thinking, right? And sharing it.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I haven't done it, but it does seem like it's about being a little more honest, more authentic, and less of the surface-level autopilot stuff that we get used to doing in the real world. Alright, what else we got? So that was your San Francisco trip. Any other big ones? Otherwise, let's do a couple of cool ideas.

Ben Levy

The last one from San Francisco is about the other person that came to dinner, this guy named Kendall. He bought The Milk Road with Mike. The Milk Road is a crypto newsletter that Sean and I started and sold. I worked with them for three months, pretty hands-on. Every time I see you, it makes me think of this: instead of asking, "What would Jesus do?" I ask, "What would Mikey and Kendall do?" They do two things really well that I try to embody whenever I ask that question. First, Kendall himself is really good at spotting opportunities. He's basically thinking and fishing all day to find what they should go after. Second, Mike is really good at consistent intensity. What I mean by that is, let's say you're trying to figure out Facebook ads. Every single day, for the first 10 hours, he'd be looking at it, trying to see what's working and what's not, and doubling down. Instead of being like, "Oh, Facebook's working, I'm going to go work on Pinterest now," or "I'm going to set up a Twitter ad," he stays focused. So, when I saw Kendall, it just reminded me to be more like Kendall and Mike in anything. Because that's a winning combination: being great at spotting things and then, once you spot something you want, taking incredible intensity to get it done.

Shaan Puri

yeah so these guys each have basically you know candles built and sold companies for something like just under a $100,000,000 2 companies mike's last company I think sold for nearly $200,000,000 so obviously very successful but when we met them you know I always look for okay what what was it about this person what what contributed to their outsized outcome because usually this shit ain't an accident you know we always say you gotta have some attributes so it's like what are the attributes that this person had that led them to that some people it's they're amazing engineers okay great they've built some crazy shit some people it's like they're amazing investors they are great at spotting opportunities and and whatever for some people they're great salespeople you know oh oh this guy could sell ice to an eskimo I can see how they were able to grow their business really fast so this person you know somebody's really high iq they're just super super smart they you know they they built this thing that I could barely understand half the words about you know but they understand that industry they they navigated it with mike and kendall I felt like with kendall I was like you wouldn't wanna compete with this guy because he's just gonna figure out the loophole in the game like he's gonna figure out the cheat code and he's gonna figure out oh and mario you run onto this block that you just hold down and then you fall behind the screen you run and then you get the magic flute that lets you skip 9 levels and I feel like that's kendall kendall will find the magic flute that lets you skip levels whereas you're sitting there trying to beat every single level he he was just like no that sounds painful I'm gonna find you know I I think I heard or you know there's gotta be this like solution where I can get ahead faster what is that who's making the most money and then how do I do what they're doing so he's he's good at sniffing out that thing and mike is like mike is smart but he's not like he's not like he's the smartest dude I've ever met but he is one of the most intense dudes I've ever met like we'll have a meeting and then we'll go out for drinks but somehow in between he ships like a a a notion dock with all of the action items tagged and like referenced because he's like well obviously that was a good plan we should write it down and then do it and I'm like yeah well don't say it like it's common sense like you know oh we're gonna get a little distracted over here and we're gonna you know we'll we'll we'll stretch it out we'll procrastinate a little bit and he's like well why would you procrastinate just do the whole thing right away it's like I don't know because I'm not you I'm not a machine and he's a machine and so I think it's really useful to just be around somebody like that and I think we had this theory when we sold the milk road to them because we were considering different offers and it was like I don't know dude I think we're not like it's hard to put a price on we're gonna get to hang out with these guys who are gonna make us better as entrepreneurs that's a factor and and so yeah the I think we've noticed this in a bunch of people as we meet people me and ben always call each other and debrief after meetings and I think one of the more common ones is they have this like an intensity is often the most common trait that we're seeing in these successful people because they're so different in all these other ways but the one thing they have is like once they see an opportunity they're pretty effing relentless and focused on doing it they don't procrastinate they don't wait around they don't you know half do things or quarter do things they like overdo things and they do it with like the intensity knob is is cranked past the 10 they broke the knob and it's on 12 I feel like that's been common for a bunch of people that we've we've hung out with over the last few years

Ben Levy

Yeah, and I think like now that I see great, I'm like, "Okay, I wasn't great. I could be great." Yeah, he's great.

Shaan Puri

Right, right, that's true. The other one that was funny was we bumped into Rahul Ligma at the Warriors game. So, if people don't remember this, when Elon bought Twitter, there was this guy who was standing outside the Twitter office with a giant cardboard box. He was like, "Yeah, I'm a data science engineer at Twitter. I got fired. Yeah, Elon came in, he fired me." Then the reporters were like, "Oh, tell us, what are your thoughts on Elon? How does it feel to have this?" And he's like, "You know..." So, this guy didn't actually work at Twitter; he was a giant troll. He's friends with some friends that we have, and he had sent a text like an hour earlier saying, "Dude, there's hella people outside of Twitter. I'm just gonna take a box and pretend I got fired. You wanna come?" So, him and his buddy went, took an empty cardboard box, and tricked reporters from CNBC and all these places. There are all these articles featuring these guys. He said his name was Rahul Ligma, as in, you know, "Ligma these nuts." And his buddy's name was Daniel Johnson. So, it was Ligma and Johnson who were pretending to be fired. They kind of went viral in Silicon Valley, as Silicon Valley loves when people trick the media or beat the media.

Shaan Puri

Out that the media is stupid and the media loves the opposite. They love to... out when Silicon Valley is stupid, overrated, overhyped, and overfunded. All this stuff, it's like a little war that goes on. So, Rahul was like, he wants to keep battling in that war. We're at the game, and I'm like, "Dude, that's the guy." Again, he's a random engineer, a startup founder that nobody knew a few months ago. Now, he was sitting courtside at the Warriors game with two billionaires, just hanging out. I was like, you know, this guy probably went to college, studied hard, and spent $150,000 getting a degree. He was trying to make his startup successful. The thing that catapulted this random inflection in his life was this random troll he decided to do. I think that's just kind of amazing and very... I don't know, there's a lesson to be learned in there. What was your reaction to that?

Ben Levy

Yeah, I thought the troll was incredible. Like, I think... You know, I'm not an anti-big media guy, but I have seen, when you're on the inside of the story, how they spin it to make a great headline. So I have one great troll.

Shaan Puri

By the way, the best part of the troll is he's holding up a Michelle Obama book. It was a cardboard box, and he had the Michelle Obama book. Then they go, "What do you think about getting fired under Elon? Was that right?" He goes, "This would have never happened under Michelle Obama," which makes no sense. That is so funny! Yeah, and they didn't somehow pick up on that, that this guy is just... you know, this guy's lying.

Ben Levy

Yeah, so, the other thing is just to do things that make no sense. I think a lot of stuff I try to do makes no sense. Why would you ever do it? You can't map it to anything going forward. You're just like, "Oh, it sounds fun and funny, so fuck it, let's do it."

Shaan Puri

Yeah, we've talked about that before—the "do cool shit" budget. Do you have a budget of both money and time that you allocate towards things that don't have a clear ROI, except for the fact that they sound fun? Or like, "Dude, that would be hilarious," or "That's amusing," or "I don't know, I've never done that before"? I think, you know, the way Google had their "20% time" was interesting. Basically, if you worked at Google, you could spend 20% of your time on anything that you thought would just be cool for Google. They were like, "Hey, we're going to pay you for one-fifth of your time, and you can spend it not on any project that we assign you or that has ROI." And like, Gmail came out of that. Facebook had these hackathons that were the same thing—these late-night hackathons that took away a bunch of productivity from engineers, but they were like, "You know, this is fun. This is good for culture, and good shit can come out of this that we can't predict." For example, the "like" button was built during one of these hackathons. The "like" button is obviously massive for Facebook. So, I think that everybody should have this "do cool shit" budget. How do you take 10 to 20% of your time and your money and put it towards things that are just for, you know, shits and giggles? I know I do that, and I think we should do that with our companies. I think everybody should really do that.

Ben Levy

Yeah, I mean, the one thing I try to do consistently is just talk to a bunch of random people. There’s no real ROI, but a lot of interesting stuff comes out of all those conversations.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, you should explain how you do that. I gave you access to my Twitter, and I was like, "Yeah, I don't know. I get a bunch of DMs; I can't keep up with all this." You kind of took that and turned it into an asset. So, like, what did you do? You basically just blocked off, like, what, Thursdays or something? Where you just have back-to-back, random meetings with people that you think are interesting, with no agenda? Is that like... that's my read of it.

Ben Levy

Yeah, man. I think, you know, a long time ago it started by basically saying, "Oh, people think Sean is awesome." So how do we DM them and just get on calls, meet interesting people, and have no agenda? We just DM people and say, "What's up? This thing is awesome," and you get like a 90% response rate. Sometimes it is a little weird because people will be like, "Thanks," and then you're like, "Alright, I don't know what to do with that." But sometimes people give you an opening. They're like, "Oh, cool dude, what's up?" So I would be like, "How do I pour all of these into conversations and talk to as many random people as possible?" Over time, I started to do it from my own account. The main idea is just like, **no agenda**. Talk to someone about what they're working on, ask a bunch of questions. Almost every single time, I learn something that I didn't think about before. Whether it be like, "Oh wow, this company is huge," or "This thing they're working on is actually way more interesting than it appeared when I first saw it." Then I try to send them interesting things as I see them on Twitter. I think my best, one of my best skills is I'm always on Twitter, see interesting things, then I just send it to a bunch of people. Over time, it tends to lead to good outcomes. I think almost everything I can count or say in my life is because I'm good at that on Twitter.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, like when I think of, "Oh, this person is great at networking," I think about, you know, some tall dude who's good at shaking hands and making small talk. You know, some smooth operator politician type dude. That's not you. You're an amazing networker, but you do nothing like that. Your method is, first of all, it's all online. Secondly, you just... I feel you don't overthink it. If I were to kind of reverse engineer what I think is good about what you do, it's that you find interesting people. You compliment them on what they're doing that's interesting. Then, you send them things that are kind of helpful, like, "Oh, did you see this?" or "Check this out," or "You might like this," or "I met this guy; you should talk to him." You just add little nuggets, 1, 2, 3, and by the third nugget, they're like, "Well, I like this Ben dude. This guy's alright. He seems to like me and he's helpful to me." Therefore, you're interested in them, and consequently, they're interested in you. Whereas I think I always took the reverse approach, which had terrible results. I wanted you to like me, so I would tell you all the interesting things about me. But no matter how interesting I am, I'm nowhere near as interesting to them as they are to themselves. I think you do an amazing job at just being interested in them and being helpful without asking for anything in return. That's how we met, and I feel like you've built better relationships with all the people I meet. So, there's something you're doing that's amazing, and I'm still trying to figure it out.

Ben Levy

I think the other thing is introducing them to other great people. I think that's always an easy win. For example, if someone is having a problem, you can say, "You should meet this person who can help you." That's a great way to do it. In college, I used to think, "Oh, I just need to always check in and see how someone is doing for them to like me and want to talk to me." Now, if someone did that with me, I'd be like, "Bro, what do you want me to say? I'm good." Or I'd think, "Oh, you went to Duke. I should write that in my notes and send you an email when Duke wins a basketball game." Then I kind of realized, what are you going to think? What if someone sent me a note every time the Suns won a game? I'd be like, "Okay, what do you want me to say? Thanks for thinking of me that the Suns won a game." So I was like, how do I just actually understand what they want? When I see interesting things, I just send it. Maybe it's useful, maybe it's not, but they know I'm thinking about them in that moment in time. Yeah, I think that skill goes a long way.

Shaan Puri

Julian Shapiro has an interesting version of this that I kind of love. He'll just send you an email with one image in it—no subject line, no text. The image is a random meme, but Julian's sense of humor is really weird. For example, it might be a picture of a parrot, and on the parrot's chest, it says, "Look in the top right corner." When you look at the top right corner, it says, "Not this one." Then you go to the left corner, and it says, "Not appeared, idiot." Down there, you look down, and it goes, "Go to the right corner." Finally, you go to the bottom right corner, and it says, "I love you." He'll send you that and nothing else, or he'll just send you like eight straight random images of, you know, whatever—a grill eating cake. And you're like, "Julian, what's going through your brain right now?" I don't know what this is, but it makes me laugh. It's just different, and it's really quick and easy for him to do. I don't know who this guy is, but he's interesting and fun, and he makes me laugh. We talk about these things that Sam does, like his "let's fuck" when he gets into town. He wants to meet somebody he only knows online or is friends with, and that's just a better, more fun version of "let's hang out." Julian's random meme thing is interesting. Your thing, where you send little helpful nuggets of "Hey, did you see this?" I think that works too. Everybody's got their own style. But, you know, the style I think doesn't work is "me, me, me, me, me," which is the style that I had originally taken. I thought, "Well, I'll just focus on what I want and what I think is cool, and then people will be interested."

Ben Levy

in that

Shaan Puri

it's like no I'm not really

Ben Levy

Yeah, and for a while, I'd be like, you know, in college there are a number of people that teach you, like, "Oh, make a LinkedIn post about your internship. You're getting a lot of people who are gonna care," or "Send people updates on what you're working on." I'm like, I don't know who cares that I got an internship at Walgreens, you know? If someone sent me that, I'd be like, "Instead, send me something interesting or cool, or ask me an interesting question, or send me something you found interesting about what I'm doing." That's way more valuable than what the other person wants.

Shaan Puri

right right

Ben Levy

we we should add this on a few ideas we should do like 5 minutes of rapid fire ideas

Shaan Puri

okay you go first

Ben Levy

First idea I've been thinking about is something related to your D2C (direct-to-consumer) business, which is wholesale. One of the things I've been considering is wholesale. For people that don't know, basically, you have a Shopify store and you want to sell more in micro stores or micro boutiques. Let's call it the local clothing store in your city. Right now, that's really hard to do. So, I've just been thinking about how someone could build something in this space that makes it really easy. We talked to a company doing this that basically makes it really easy to spin up and run your sales channel as well. Is there anything to add to that one?

Shaan Puri

That's a great idea and a no-brainer. We have a person in our e-commerce brand who is dedicated to this process. It was very manual; it's like finding a list of all the mom-and-pop boutiques. Great! Now, reach out cold with this script, and it's all managed through Gmail or some sales tool. So, like sourcing them, reaching out to them, managing the payments and invoices, and keeping track of your analytics. Who's actually a big spender for you? Who's falling off and churning? You should reach back out to them... all that stuff. Making it easy for them to shop because they're buying in bulk, all that stuff. I think can be... I would love a tool that does this. And by the way, we should reach back out to that company that we talked to about this and be like, "Hey, we gotta do this!"

Ben Levy

what alright give me give me one of your ideas let's do 2 more

Shaan Puri

alright you told me about nil which is the college name and likeness thing where basically college athletes can now get paid so up until now they couldn't get paid now they can get paid to do you know appearances or merge or different things like that I love businesses that are built around rule changes or law changes because it takes something that was impossible and now makes it very possible and there's great examples of this like oscar health was built as soon as obamacare came out and so one I think that somebody should do is if I'm like you know 21 years old or or whatever I'm 18 years old right now I would be like alright I now have access to a bunch of influencers that are in college that wanna get paid and the and the marketplace is not efficient yet meaning they have more sway than they're priced at just because people haven't abused this channel yet so I'm gonna be the one to abuse this channel I'm gonna be the one to grow like crazy off this the way that the movement watches guys built a luxury watch brand using kind of cheap watches because they were like yo instagram has these people who are popular influencers we should send them all watches and pay them to to promote and they built a $100,000,000 watch brand before instagram influencers became a big deal so I think somebody should do this and it's like alright you should work backwards from what do who follows college athletes and what do they need so let's let's assume for a second that it's other college students at that college or fans of that college that follow them what could I sell and so what are the best products and so you know maybe it's financial services like credit card type stuff or maybe it's like a beverage brand like an energy drink because I remember in college like people would drink red bulls at 5 hour energies staying up late studying I think you could create a new 5 hour energy off the back of nil or you could create a new condom brand like I don't know how big trojan or durex are these brands are but you know they've been around for a while they're kinda stale and they don't they're not that fun and I think somebody could build the the college condom brand or the college energy drink brand using these nil influencers

Ben Levy

Yeah, I think in general, NIL [Name, Image, and Likeness]... I tried to book someone before using like Open Doors, which I think today is kind of the winner of the NIL marketplace. Basically, the idea of "I can book someone on demand for anything," whether it be an appearance, autograph, etcetera. I think there has to be a startup out there that is doing this now in a really good way locally. So we should find that startup too, that's attacking the NIL marketplace in a different way, right?

Shaan Puri

Alright, that's going to be it for the pod. Thanks, Ben, for coming on! Actually, if you like Ben and want to see some of the stuff he's working on right now, one thing is that we took every episode of *My First Million*. We've done over 400 episodes now, and we had someone go through and pull out every idea, every framework, and every tool that's mentioned. We're categorizing it and putting it all into a giant Airtable. This way, you can basically see all the ideas we've had, and then you could sort by categories like AI, crypto, SaaS, or side hustles, for example. I took the top ten for both frameworks and ideas, and I'm writing about them, expanding on them, and saying, "Here's the idea, here's what I would do for each of those." We're putting it together, so this is going to be like a super PDF type thing. If you want that, go to my website, seanpourri.com, and drop your email in. I don't know how long it's going to take us to finish this—maybe another week or so—but that's where I'm going to send it out. So, go there, sign up, and if you want to take the best of from the pod along with updates, I'm going to update and give my commentary on the best ones from there. I think that's going to be an awesome resource for people. If you're a fan of the pod, it's a no-brainer; it's kind of a must-have if you've been listening all the way through. There's no way to keep track of all the different ideas we've mentioned here. So, I think that's going to be awesome. I'm excited about that. Thanks to Ben for coming on, and again, I'll put the link in the description on YouTube and in the podcast, but it's just seanpourri.com, and then you can put your email in there. Alright, guys, thank you for listening. That's it for the pod!