How He Turned His Side Hustle Into A $100M Business
Peter Thiel, NFTs, DAOs and AppSumo Growth - December 3, 2021 (over 3 years ago) • 01:04:45
Transcript:
| Start Time | Speaker | Text |
|---|---|---|
Noah Kagan |
I just started as a side hustle. I was in a basement in San Francisco and I was like, "Yo, I have a theory about what I think will be big and I want to make $3,000 a month." Never was it like, "I want to make millions of dollars" or "I want to have a bunch of people" or "I want to have a bunch of customers."
How are you, Sam? How are you today?
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Sam Parr | I'm good what are you doing | |
Noah Kagan |
Well, I just got back from Albuquerque. I was hanging out with my family, and then I just got home. There's like back-to-back meetings before we go to the Trail of Lights tonight in Austin.
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Sam Parr | I know Neville and Neil. I've heard all about you guys. You're going to have some exciting times tonight. Did you wait? You weren't working today, like a normal schedule?
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Noah Kagan | I actually work really best in airplanes. So, I got up, worked on the airplane, landed, and I've just been kind of back-to-back meetings now until 6:30.
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Sam Parr | do you enjoy having a normal schedule now oh | |
Noah Kagan | I had some trauma, you know? By the way, like, Silicon Valley tech worker trauma is like, "My boss didn't give me a 20% raise; it was a 10% raise," and I am traumatized.
When I worked at Intel, all I did was meetings, and I was like, "This is the worst thing ever." Now, all I do is meetings.
But then, you know, I will say though, today I was in some meetings and I was interacting. I was like, "Man, I love you people." There are some meetings that suck, and you have to figure out how to get rid of them or change the meeting.
Then there are some where, wow, we're business forward. There are things that are happening that are making things happen in the business.
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Sam Parr | So, Noah, you know, Noah Kagan's here, founder of this company called AppSumo, which we'll talk about in a second. But you basically, like, you kind of... I don't know, do you say you stepped away? You weren't actively running the company day-to-day for a couple of years. Now you're the CEO again.
I was active for a long time, now I'm not active. It's amazing! It's the best. I don't know, like, I don't think I have it in me, at least not right now, to go back and do that. Do you think that you have it in you?
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Noah Kagan | It's hard... I mean, I was not working. I know it sounds like such an ass thing to say, but I wasn't really working. I was doing podcasts, which isn't really working.
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Sam Parr | and I | |
Noah Kagan | I was making a lot of money and now I'm working I actually think I'll make the least I've made this year | |
Sam Parr | in the past what does that mean you're making a lot of money from what | |
Noah Kagan | Well, Eamon, we hired this guy to run AppSumo.com. He was running it, and I was like, "Oh, well, let me make YouTube videos, I'll do podcasts, and I'll build SendFox and experimental stuff." Then I would get paid.
Eamon wanted to step out and be an adviser, and I stepped in. Now I'm having to do all his work, I will say. I think I'll make less money this year.
Two things with that: one, sometimes when you criticize another... because I criticized Eamon a lot, but I... well, just like productive.
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Sam Parr | just like you could be better you could be better eamon why are you doing this yeah | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, Jewish mother, like Noah. Why not your cousin? He could have been like your brother. He's a doctor, and being in his shoes definitely makes me respect him so much more.
But I just... a lot. Just a lot. He is a very impressive guy. Also, he had a deal with me.
But I'd say the second thing is that the work now is harder. It's hard, but it's much more rewarding. I was even writing that down in my diary this morning. I said, "Dear diary, hard work is rewarding."
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Sam Parr | Noah, you have the weirdest... So, like, you talk about having a diary. You always talk about going to therapy, which is no big deal. None of these things are bad; they're all great. But you act like a tough guy sometimes, and then you talk about how you gotta complain to your diary. You kind of shocked me.
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Noah Kagan | I think, you know, I think of myself like a Chinese dish. I'm like sweet and sour pork. You know, like you're not really supposed to have pork as a Jew. Sometimes it's sweet, and then sometimes you're like kind of sour. It's just like... it's a mixed bag. It's a variety. It's entertaining.
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Sam Parr | You're... since I've known you now for I think like 8 or 9 years. You've been cagey with numbers, so I don't want to push you if you don't want to be pushed. Can you talk about how big you guys are now? Given, I mean, in your YouTube video, I think you said $100,000,000 in revenue.
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Noah Kagan | yeah we're not gonna hit it we actually missed our goal this year it's gonna be less than that I I | |
Sam Parr | well maybe 80 you you said 80 in another video what I think we're a cage | |
Noah Kagan | because someone doesn't wanna tell you how much they make is a cage | |
Sam Parr | Yes, I don't think that's wrong, though. I don't like to talk; I don't talk about a lot of stuff either. I say like round numbers sometimes, or I'll just say, "I don't want to talk about that."
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Noah Kagan | alright how much did you sell the hustle for let's try these let's try cagey numbers | |
Sam Parr | tens of 1,000,000 of dollars yeah and | |
Noah Kagan | then how much do you make a year now working at hubspot | |
Sam Parr | Well, I get paid... I get paid a whole lot in stock, but my base salary I think is only $250,000. Maybe "only" is not the right word, because my stock is significant.
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Noah Kagan | I will say this: you know, in all these shows nowadays, and with crypto people, they're always like, "This is not financial advice."
I'm going to give financial advice. I buy a lot of HubSpot stock. I think it's one of the most undervalued stocks on the market. So, dude.
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Sam Parr | When they bought us, I think they were worth $17 billion or $16 billion in late January. Around when they bought us, I think today it's $40 billion.
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Noah Kagan | hell yeah | |
Sam Parr | So, yeah, that's gone up a lot. When people ask how much we sold for, I'm like, "Well, we sold... I basically got tens of millions in cash."
Then I also got HubSpot stock, but it's already up significantly since we sold. I don't know, like, what price do you say? Frankly, I don't know.
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Noah Kagan | yeah sorry | |
Sam Parr | I don't know and I don't love exactly saying what were you gonna ask who's wealthier | |
Noah Kagan | you or sean | |
Sam Parr | Oh dude, I don't know. Here, I'll tell you this: we did a podcast recently, and I basically said my goal was to make at least $20,000,000 by the age of 30. And I did that! Dude, good for you!
That was the goal, but you know, I also own assets now in some real estate. I own HubSpot stock and Airbnb stock. But like, you own AppSumo, which is an $80,000,000 a year business. Do you think you're worth $200,000,000 or $300,000,000?
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Noah Kagan | I think appsumo is worth somewhere between a quarter $1,000,000,000 and a $1,000,000,000 | |
Sam Parr | isn't that crazy | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, I don't really look at that as part of my net worth. I just look at my own. It's interesting, we've talked about this a little bit. I think there's Silicon Valley entrepreneurs that think about your valuation of a company, and then there's me and you who are normal people that are like:
"What's your profit? What's your revenue?"
Alright, you're worth a million dollars. Not like, "Oh well, the multiple is this..." If they say *multiple*, they're Silicon Valley.
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Sam Parr | Well, I mean, you guys would sell for... if you think you're going to do in the range of $80,000,000 in revenue, I mean, I don't know how I would value that. Maybe 5 times profits or 5 times that number, I guess, right?
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Noah Kagan |
I don't know, man. It's a little surreal. I'm not sure how different my life would be. My brother did ask me, "If you were to sell, you know, how much would you sell for?" And I was like, "I don't know... like if it was a billion dollars..."
I think people don't realize that... like when Mark Zuckerberg... I worked at Facebook, and I... [pauses] I heard Catherine's like, "Shut up talking about that," but you gotta give him credit, man. He turned down a $1 billion offer at 24. Yeah, he's crazy. Like, dude, you took the first offers anyone offered you.
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Sam Parr | no I didn't but but like yeah I was like eager I mean I think | |
Noah Kagan | I say that with love I say that with love dude | |
Sam Parr | No, we had a few other ones, but it was a good one. I knew that HubSpot... I didn't know; I was betting that HubSpot stock was a good buy.
I think that I just, like, I'm not Zuck. I can't imagine working. Dude, do you think his life is enjoyable? I can't imagine it's enjoyable. No, I mean, I guess he enjoys it, but I just think that that's hell to me.
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Noah Kagan | that's why he has to have a virtual character enjoy it more for him | |
Sam Parr | Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we have this buddy. We remember that one time we were out to eat, and you could say his name. I don't know, he's your friend, so you can tell me if you want to say his name.
But he was like, "Noah, you're not growing at 3 times a year! What the fuck? You're leaving so much on the table!" And you're like, "Dude, I just went mountain biking on a Tuesday, and then on Wednesday I did this, and then on Thursday I did this. We're gonna make like $80,000,000 in revenue this year, and I own most of it. I'm so happy!"
And he was criticizing you as a friend, and I was like, "No, is he crazy? You've got to understand, this is perfect. Don't change. This is perfect."
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Noah Kagan | It's... I don't know. I guess it depends on how you want to live. Do you think that changes over the years?
In your twenties, you're just scrambling and wanting to prove yourself. I know for me, I wanted to have status. I wanted to have it all. Then, as you move into your thirties, you know, I'm still doing it.
What? No, I'm just saying you figure out more about what really gives you fulfillment. I think everyone has their own journey. Figuring it out for yourself is a really tough thing. | |
Sam Parr | you how many people work there a 100 | |
Noah Kagan | I think now we have a 140 | |
Sam Parr | isn't that crazy | |
Noah Kagan | it's yeah yeah it is crazy | |
Sam Parr | do you see | |
Noah Kagan | like it was just a it was just started as a side oh sorry am am I cutting you off too | |
Sam Parr | no keep going I wanna hear from you | |
Noah Kagan |
It started as a side hustle. I was in a basement in San Francisco, and I was like, "Yo, I have a theory about what I think will be big, and I want to make $3,000 a month." Never was it like, "I want to make millions of dollars" or "I want to have a bunch of people" or "I want to have a bunch of..."
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Sam Parr | customers why 3,000 a month | |
Noah Kagan | a thousand was for living a thousand was for eating and a thousand was for saving | |
Sam Parr | That's funny. That's almost exactly what I did too. It was about that number. Did you? Well, how big do you think it was going to get?
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Noah Kagan | I never thought that far ahead I mean there's a go for it | |
Sam Parr | I keep interrupting you I'm sorry go ahead no | |
Noah Kagan |
It's all good, man. Well, there's a quote I read by Paul Graham, and it was like:
> If you're so worried about what your company's gonna be in 10 years, you're never gonna make sure you can take care of your customers today, and your business won't exist in 10 years. So don't worry about it.
I just kinda... I guess that's how that's served me well. I think someone asked me, "What did it take to become a millionaire?" and I think one of the things for me was just following the curiosity. I was curious about all this stuff that... that we, me and you, get paid for.
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Sam Parr | Yeah, I mean, I'm in the same boat. I think when I have 140 employees, I don't know if it would freak me out. But, like, I remember... do you still look at your payroll when you pay it every two weeks?
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Noah Kagan | Well, do you mind if I just tell you the call? I literally was late to the podcast because, you know, we're taking the whole team out to Costa Rica.
Then, we also had some spending for advertising. It was like **$50,000**. I'm just like, "Yes, we make revenue, but at the end of the day, if you don't have income and you're not a funded business, you're going to go out of business."
So, I think it's figuring out how to create checks and balances so I'm not stressing about it weekly. But there are definitely some net income issues that are keeping me up.
Then, we're doing budgeting projections. The messed up thing with budgeting is if you budget for **$100,000,000** to **$120,000,000**, or whatever, **$150,000,000**, and you spend on that and you don't make it, then yeah, you get kind of messed up too.
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Sam Parr | I think that you and I are similar in that when I see the numbers, I say, "Yeah, I want to hit $100,000,000 in revenue." Then they say, "Alright, well then we have to spend $80,000,000." I look at it and I'm like, "Oh my God, what the hell? What is this $50,000 expense? What is this $10,000 expense? Are you crazy? We can't do this! This is ridiculous!"
I get fearful. I think that's the cool thing about having a guy like Eamon, where he's a little bit less attached.
There's this company called NerdWallet, you know NerdWallet? Tim Chen gave me a little bit of money to start The Hustle. It was his idea to give me money. He was like, "Hey, can I give you some money to start this?" I took it, and they just went public at like $3 or $4 billion in valuation.
I went to him one day and said, "Tim, we're spending $80,000 a month in expenses. We're making more than that, but that's crazy!" He goes, "Man, it's just an Excel number. It's just a spreadsheet. It has an input and an output. That's all you should care about. You shouldn't actually care that it's $80,000 a month."
I still find myself freaking out over that stuff. For you, let's say, I don't know, I imagine your payroll is like $10,000,000, $40,000,000, or $50,000,000 a year or something like that, or your payroll and marketing expenses. I would flip out when I think about that because that's all basically your money. Whereas with Eamon or someone else, you could be more detached.
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Noah Kagan | Yeah, I mean, Eamon always cared, and I have a lot of respect and admiration for him. He's still very involved.
I think the way that I've tried to approach it generally is in two pieces.
**Number one:** When does the red flag need to be triggered? Every week, we have a Monday KPI sheet that they update. Our gross margin, they update customer numbers, and there's color coding. It's like, "Okay, are there red flags in any of the numbers that I need to call out?" I think that obviously reduces your anxiety and helps you make sure that you're trusting but verifying.
**The second thing** around it is: If something is a profitable spend, how much should you spend?
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Sam Parr | It depends on a lot of different factors. But if you're spending money and you're making a 30% profit, go all in.
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Noah Kagan | Hon, there's no budget; it's unlimited. I think that's part of the question with the spending for me. Where is our spending very profitable? Is it in marketing, development, sales, or the partner success team?
Or are there things, like AWS, where they're a little bit more scalable up and down and they're not as profitable? We need to be mindful of that. | |
Sam Parr | how big do you think this business could get in like 10 or 20 years do you have do you ever think about that | |
Noah Kagan |
I'm just trying to survive to next year, dude. I mean, it's funny... We've had, as we've grown, and it's been interesting because I have my YouTube channel, which is a very small team of like 5 people, and then we have AppSumo, which is a larger thing.
I come back to the "why," right? Like on AppSumo, it's very simple: **we promote dope tools at great prices and we help people start and grow online businesses** [AppSumo.com]. And I think we have to come back to that because people are like, "Where are we gonna be in 5 years?" I'm like, "Probably helping people grow and start online businesses." No?
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Sam Parr | I know you're gonna be doing the same thing but like can we | |
Noah Kagan | We went to the spreadsheet and we tripled numbers. Silicon Valley doubled, doubled, tripled from In-N-Out, and we became a $1,000,000,000 company in revenue in like 5 years or something like that.
Right now, candidly, some of our mechanics in terms of the scalable business means, as we add partners, do we get customers and does the business grow?
How do I say it more clearly? It's just not adding up. We added more partners this year, and the proportional amount of customers did not come with that. So, we have to work a little bit more on that flywheel, which is a really good measure.
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Sam Parr | With trends, we had trends as our subscription service. We *crushed it* during COVID. We *crushed it*! I think now sales have slowed down a little bit. I think it's cyclical, but in this... like, I bet if I had to bet, COVID was like the best time we ever had.
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Noah Kagan | COVID... COVID was great, man. I thought it was just great in general, right? I thought it brought a lot of good about humanity. Not the death part, maybe, but like the bringing people closer.
I don't know, man. I've been doing the internet stuff since 2004. I've never had a recession. It's not that I have some superpower, but it's like, well, the only way to not have a recession is to just keep doing things that people want.
Basically, I think one of the other key things to consider is: how do you have discipline when times are good so you don't have to be as disciplined when times are bad?
I think right now, candidly, with AppSumo, I think we're being a little bit undisciplined with our spending and our hiring because times have been better. I'm trying to get that a little bit tighter, whether the future is good or not. | |
Sam Parr | why is your youtube team so big | |
Noah Kagan | five people I don't even think it's that big mister luis says like a 100 people | |
Sam Parr | no wait you think he has a 100 employees | |
Noah Kagan | at least 50 full time at least 50 full time if not a 100 contractors | |
Sam Parr | yeah and are they what's his name | |
Noah Kagan | the mr beast jimmy | |
Sam Parr | Jimmy, are they all like... it's because it's like the Jimmy show, right? So it's like whatever he wants, you do.
I think that'd be weird to have 50 employees where it's like, "Hey guys, next week I'm thinking I wanna do this." The reason I would hate that is because then you've got someone like, "Hey Jimmy, what if we had a Rolling Stones song in the background?"
No, I don't want that. Just let me do what I wanna do, please. Just fulfill that.
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Noah Kagan | It's a... so we have a Head of Staff, and one thing I've never liked is when someone says, "Hey, can you remind me about this?" I'm like, "No, just write it down! I just told you. You want me to remind you? Do your job!"
But I will say, you know, becoming CEO—which I never called myself over the years until recently—there are times when you're like, "Yo, remind me," and you're like, "Oh my God, you're gonna remind me?" Her name is Anna, who's Head of Staff. She's phenomenal.
With the YouTube channel, I'm like, "Hey, I want you to come back with more ideas. Go pitch me 10 more ideas." They come back, and I'm like, "This is the best ever!"
So I think it is figuring out, you know, what areas you like to play in and then being around people that you're just consistently impressed with. Having people that will help you figure out things... oh God, it's epic.
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Sam Parr | are you getting noticed on the street now | |
Noah Kagan |
No, not just in the home, really. It varies in Austin, you know? It's kind of our hometown, so I think more people do it. Not actually... even though the channel's gotten bigger (we doubled this year), I actually used to get noticed a lot at the gym. The guy would say, "Hey bro!" and I'm like, "Hey!" I don't know, I'm always still excited when people come and say hi.
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Sam Parr | I just got did | |
Noah Kagan | you get recognized | |
Sam Parr | Yeah, weekly, I just... this morning, just walking down the street, it makes me a little nervous sometimes because I'm thinking, "I gotta... I love smoking cigars." I'll just walk around smoking cigars, and I'm like, "I don't want people to see me smoking." It makes me a little nervous.
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Noah Kagan | Don't you think it's flattering? I'm always so... I always feel honored that something I've worked on has impacted this person. They're excited to say hi to me.
Like, who have you seen that you've said hi to that you're a little nervous about?
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Sam Parr | The other day, I saw Logan Paul. I respect Logan Paul, and I said, "What's up?" I just pounded it while I was walking by. He's a huge dude. Logan's huge.
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Noah Kagan | was this here or | |
Sam Parr | New York. When I was there, or I guess it was about 2 or 3 months ago, I saw him. I respect what he built. He was a big old dude. I could have stopped and said, "Hey, this is what I do for a living. Your brother was on my thing, and we probably have friends of friends."
But I was honestly kind of nervous, and I just pounded it when I walked away.
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Noah Kagan | well I'm sure he'll do a twitter thing like hey I wanna have logan on the show but anyways that's that's awesome man | |
Sam Parr | did you see my twitter thread about when I met the silk road guy | |
Noah Kagan | no | |
Sam Parr | You didn't see that I posted it the other day? I was looking through old Dropbox pictures, or go to my Instagram or something. You'll see it. I posted your... yeah, I want you to see it. It's me with Ross Albright, the guy from Silk Road.
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Noah Kagan | oh I think I remember that story you posted about it | |
Sam Parr | Yeah, I talked about it here, but I was looking through old Dropbox pictures and I found the pictures of us together. I originally took them down off Facebook because I was nervous, but now it's no big deal.
I posted the pictures about how I met this guy named Ross at a party. We just chit-chatted, and he got arrested months later. I recognized him and I was like, "Oh my God, that was Ross, the guy we hung out with at the party."
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Noah Kagan | how much better is your life now being rich | |
Sam Parr | It do you know that $70,000 study? | |
Noah Kagan | I've heard that that sounds like bullshit to me | |
Sam Parr | It's bullshit. It's way better. It's significantly better.
I think, like, I still worry about stuff. I was just talking to my friend about this today, and I was like, "Why am I nervous about this and that?" I told Neville, "I go, Neville, Neville bought this $800 vacuum." I went up to his house to borrow it, and I was like, "I can't buy one of these. It's $800. It's too expensive."
He's like, "Why are you worrying about that?" I'm like, "I don't know. It freaks me out. I'm afraid to buy stuff."
So, do you have that?
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Noah Kagan | Yeah, well, I think two things are interesting.
One, I went to the grocery store with my parents for Thanksgiving. My mom bought grapes. I'm really into green grapes lately, and she's like, "Noah, these are really expensive today. Let's not get them." I'm like, "Deborah, it's your birthday! I'm going to treat you. You get two of them."
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Sam Parr | don't I I have no problems anything that's health related I'll buy | |
Noah Kagan | I don't know. I'm still mindful of it. I think what's fascinating on the other side of it, Sam, is like I mentioned it to you in a text, but you didn't want me to talk about it, which is like crypto and NFT crap.
All these former Shopify store owners are now crypto experts, which is funny. I trade, and I'll buy something and make like $100, or I'll lose like $1,000, and I'm not devastated. It's insane.
Then, like AppSumo, we promote partners, and you know, we'll do like $1,000,000 in a day. The partners make like $700,000, and our customers are happy. I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." Yeah, it's funny that there's...
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Sam Parr | a phrase it's called a a a penny poor pound rich I think right or | |
Noah Kagan | yeah | |
Sam Parr | Something like that... We were talking about crypto, but you don't actually buy crypto, right? You just bought a bunch at one time and held on to it.
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Noah Kagan | No, well, two things. One thing I want to highlight is a phrase that Chad, my business partner at AppSumo.com—do you like how I plug it?—said. He actually had this great phrase: "Noah, don't confuse the anthills for the mountains." I was like, "Damn, that's good!"
He said, "When we're doing work at AppSumo and the different products we've built, or whatever it is, is this a macro thing or a micro thing? Let's do the macro thing. Let's get some fucking mountains, man! Don't sweat this bullshit stuff."
I'm like, "Alright, but that's hard, man." Especially, I was telling someone recently about all these productivity tools. Everyone's always just like, "What's the latest?" I'm like, "You're not even doing anything! Don't worry about the calendar and the productivity tool. Worry about just doing important things."
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Sam Parr | this is the best productivity tool the back of an envelope | |
Noah Kagan | that's damn it's a good like | |
Sam Parr | it gets the job done | |
Noah Kagan |
Oh, my crypto thing? Yeah, I buy... I'm a boring investor. So I think there's active income and passive income, and I try to focus on my active. I just started buying in 2015, and I just put it on autopilot. I've just auto-bought it every month for the past 6 years.
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Sam Parr | And it's like made up of substantial... I mean, you've done well with it, I think, which is pretty great.
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Noah Kagan | I'll tell you the number on that that I don't mind | |
Sam Parr | what okay I mean you can | |
Noah Kagan | no I don't I have to tell you it's fine | |
Sam Parr | I I if I had a bet can I can I guess | |
Noah Kagan | oh yeah or I'll be cagey | |
Sam Parr | I would guess between 12,000,000 | |
Noah Kagan | not 4,000,000 but | |
Sam Parr | it's 4,000,000 yeah isn't that nuts | |
Noah Kagan | Well, it's always so funny because then you're like, "Yesterday, I was disappointed. This weekend, I didn't buy Cryptopunks when my buddy was like, 'You should buy it, dude!' But it was like $50,000, and I'm like, 'That's crazy to buy status and imagery.'
It's an investment; it's only an investment when it goes up. It's gambling when it goes down. | |
Sam Parr | well the nfts I I think are mostly fucking stupid | |
Noah Kagan | oh don't get me stir dude I just went on a deep hole | |
Sam Parr | on this stuff onboard or not | |
Noah Kagan | Dude, I just got scammed. I lost... I'm like, I can't even know what happened for the past two weeks. Yesterday, I woke up at 8 AM to buy apes. I just spent $1,600 on apes. What of the...? | |
Sam Parr | the 4,000,000 in crypto how much did you what what's your what's your basis there | |
Noah Kagan | I could pull it up it's probably maybe about half a1000000 or 400,000 | |
Sam Parr | isn't that amazing isn't isn't that crazy | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, well, I think I've always just... it's interesting because I've not always felt this way. When I started using it, I was like, "Oh, I can see why people think this is gonna be big." But yeah, the return on it as an investment is pretty insane.
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Sam Parr | That's nuts! What else could do that? Like some public equities, but you don't even angel invest.
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Noah Kagan | do you | |
Sam Parr | I mean angel invest could do that it just takes forever | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, it's not... I mean, I think the best investment for everyone is their own business. If you look at it like active income, really creating your own company has pretty much the highest multiples I can imagine. Also, you can control it if you can get something to work, because most of them don't work that well.
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Sam Parr | yeah but you gotta grind sometimes often | |
Noah Kagan |
I talked to this guy while I was biking on Saturday. His name was Nick, and he said, "Man, I gotta grind." I asked him how much he makes, and he said about 60k. I thought to myself, "I don't care, I'm not judging how much he makes," but I said to him:
"Why don't you... you know, if you're gonna grind, at least grind something that has higher upside for yourself. Because it's the same amount of work."
He doesn't work harder than me, I don't work harder than him. I just worked on something that, from a strictly financial perspective, has a better opportunity.
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Sam Parr | When you're working with Eamon... So, Eamon was your CEO and a good friend—my good friend too. How often would you talk to him?
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Noah Kagan | It varied, like, probably once a week on Fridays and then a little bit throughout the week. But they actually kept me out of Slack; they kept me out of everything because it's kind of like noise.
Like, my mom's a Jewish mother. It's like, "Noah, what's that on the screen? What is that?" It's better to be out. I think that's probably the reason he wanted to step out.
And this is... I don't think we're airing our private stuff.
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Sam Parr | wait he wanted to step out because you were nagging him | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, I think to some extent... I don't think anyone feels really excited. No one wakes up like excited, you know? Unless it's some weird kink to be like, "Hey, oh what are you doing today?" What do you... and I think there's probably a little bit too much of that.
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Sam Parr | Do you think that... I mean, I've had people quit for that reason. I do the same thing. You and I are very similar, you know that, right?
I did the same thing where I'm like, "Why are you doing this? What's going on today? What are you doing right now? What actions can we take immediately to fix X, Y, and Z?" I think you need both. You need that urgency, but if you have a good... if you have a winner, you do gotta let them chill and get it done.
Do you think that, Eamon? Whenever I have hired people to run stuff, I always... I get freaked out. I'm like, "This guy's gonna... when he finds out that I'm profiting off their work, they're gonna bail. This is so unfair, and I hope they don't figure this out." Did you freak out about that?
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Noah Kagan | I used to have a lot of that where I would never post anything on social media. I wouldn't post any activity. I wouldn't post, like, "Hey, I made my first million." I would never say anything about that.
Eventually, I got to a point where I was like, "Well, am I helping these people live their best lives at the company? Am I doing my best to pay them whatever they want?" So, with Eamon, I'm not going to share his numbers, but I asked him, "How much do you want to make?" He gave me a number, and he made more than that.
I never really felt guilt because that guy got more than he wanted, and I did well too. But I think within the company, it's also about people being free to work wherever. So, it's like, how do you create an environment where people are like, "Yo, that guy's doing well, and I'm doing well"?
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Sam Parr | are you interested in any projects right now you had sendfox did you shut down sendfox | |
Noah Kagan | no we're still running send fox.com it's a mailchimp alternative what do | |
Sam Parr | you like what what type of projects are keeping you up | |
Noah Kagan | The two things that I'm focused on are, number one, AppSumo. You know, becoming more of a marketplace where you can buy or sell software tools and books.
The second thing is all this NFT stuff; it's mind-blowing. There's just so much happening. So, Sam, I think you kind of smirk, and you know, at first, I think that's what a lot of people have done with it.
It's the same with crypto. When I was buying in 2015, people were like, "I don't fully get it," but there's something just interesting about it.
It's similar to when I joined Facebook. When I joined Facebook, people were like, "You're going to go work at a social network? Okay, that seems weird." But there are just a lot of these really interesting use cases that I'm very tempted by, and I'm very excited about what’s to come.
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Sam Parr | use cases | |
Noah Kagan | So, some of the really interesting ones... One is called **CityDAO**. Basically, everyone pulls their money together and then they buy a city. They bought land in Wyoming, and now if you own one of the NFTs or tokens within it, you get votes on what they're going to do with the city. That's amazing! I find that really fascinating.
Everything's public, so you see who's voting and what the votes are. There's not much hidden.
There are other ones that I've liked. One's called **HeadDAO**. It's kind of a stupid concept, but I think conceptually it's really interesting. I don't know if it's run well, but what I like about it is that it is a fund where you buy their NFTs. There are 10,000 NFTs, and everyone buys one. If you hold the NFTs, the fund goes and buys stuff, and based on your NFT, you get some return for whatever the fund invests in. So, it's kind of like an index fund of crypto and other assets. I think there's just something...
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Sam Parr | What's the city one called? CityDAO. Who's organizing it?
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Noah Kagan | CityDAO... I don't know, but it's all public for the most part. There's just so much stuff like that.
Think about this: you can do housing. Right now, housing is like Noah owns a contract, goes to the thing, and all this. It's like you can have a house that's shared by a thousand people, or like Roblox or Minecraft.
The game stuff is really interesting where it's not like Facebook and Twitter that get everything. With Roblox, it's like the creators and the consumers own the whole thing.
Same with AppSumo. How can we create it so the whole customer base owns AppSumo? They're incentivized to start doing AppSumo more. I guess it's kind of like owning a share in Amazon, but on a deeper level. | |
Sam Parr | Have you ever paid money to be part of a membership group, like Tiger 21 or anything like that?
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Noah Kagan | not yet I've always not yet | |
Sam Parr | so there's this thing called what's it called friends with benefits have you seen that | |
Noah Kagan | I've heard of it what is this | |
Sam Parr | And so, I think the market cap is like $100 million at this point. It was basically a Soho House online. So, like, cool New York young people paid either $500, $1,000, or $2,000 to be part of an online group that held meetups. It was like hot people and young people wearing Vans and Supreme and stuff—like cool kid stuff.
You had to buy an NFT or a coin to join the community, and you were incentivized to make the community awesome because people could sell their membership or give it up. It could be worth more than when they initially bought in. I think that's interesting.
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Noah Kagan | There's just a lot of you. I mean, it's still so early. So what's going to happen after the dust settles and the consolidation of all the junk? Because I'll tell you, I jumped in. There's like all this Discord... you know, it's like Slack for juvenile delinquency.
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Sam Parr | dude it's so hard to figure out I feel so old | |
Noah Kagan |
It's not just that it's hard to use, it's also so spammy. Like, I go in it and they're like... But anyway, there's just a lot going on in this space, so I'm trying not to rush into anything. Just trying to understand, alright?
I think with AppSumo we did a good job where people are like, "I want to start businesses, I want tools." And it's like, how is entrepreneurship and startups and stuff evolving?
There's definitely something where there's so much money and there's so much speed happening in this crypto/NFT space that I find... I don't know, at this current time, I'm just obsessed with it.
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Sam Parr | How are the guy or the people setting up the town in Wyoming going to make a profit? How do they get paid?
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Noah Kagan | So, there are a lot of different... dude, there are all these different things. I fully don't understand every single one out there, but what they do is a few different things.
First, they can keep some of the assets. When you mint the tokens or the NFTs to give out, people buy into it. For example, when I create the baseball cards and sell them to you for 1 ETH each, the CityDAO keeps all that. They can then decide how much of that goes out to use to buy land. They could say 80% buys land or 50%. They can decide that.
The second thing they do, which is really interesting and clever about NFT stuff, is that a lot of times on the secondary sales, the original owner gets a cut. Do you know that?
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Sam Parr | yeah I didn't know how much though | |
Noah Kagan | So, it varies. You can have a situation where if I create NFTs and they're ever resold, I get 5% of all sales forever. There are some really interesting things, and then you can have people contribute more.
There's just a lot of variations. At the end of the day, people have had partnerships, so this is not brand new. I think the medium of exchange through crypto and all this stuff is creating new opportunities. | |
Sam Parr | You, Neville, and a couple of other friends hung out with Peter Thiel a few weeks ago. You can decide what you want to publicize or not, but one thing I think I can share is that he said something to Neville. He mentioned, "You know, businesses are neat, but they die."
He also said something like, "Any city that's ever been a somewhat major city has never died before." Apparently, his obsession right now is on cities.
I actually invested in this one company where they're doing gene editing. You know what gene editing is?
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Noah Kagan | not familiar | |
Sam Parr | It's like basically the "explained like I'm 5" version: if you get a disease and your skin goes away or something happens to your skin and it gets messed up, gene editing allows you to tinker with someone's genes so they'll grow back new skin. Whereas before, they probably wouldn't have had that option.
The issue with gene editing is that it's highly regulated by the FDA. The future of gene editing could be that if you're an amputee, you can grow back a new leg, or you could grow a new liver or kidney, or whatever... you know, stuff like that.
Peter Thiel has this city in Bolivia, somewhere in Central or South America. He basically is the founder of this city, and the company that I invested in is based out of that city because there is no FDA there, which is potentially horrible but also kind of interesting. He said that he's incredibly invested and interested in new cities, and I think that's cool.
When I hear about all these new startup people, like Mark Laurie, the founder of Jet, he has a new city. I think these new cities are actually incredibly fascinating. | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, I'm more interested in kind of like shared home ownership. I think there's something just kinda clever about it. Like, how do I own a building but there's a lot of people that own it and a lot of people can use it? I think there's just too many people that have too much house for just one individual, so I like the concept of that.
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Sam Parr | what do you think about meeting peter thiel | |
Noah Kagan | You know, there are a lot of interesting things about him. I think when I tweeted about this, it was about No Kagan. One thing is that he just uses an iPhone 7, right? Right, like the guy's... | |
Sam Parr | what are we on now what I've got the new one what is that | |
Noah Kagan | yeah 13 pro dot 5 whatever | |
Sam Parr | and he's on a 7 | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, and he had like, you know, crappy New Balances. He looked like he was wearing Mervyn socks and Wrangler jeans. I gotta give a fuck about it, and then, you know, was... | |
Sam Parr | he really do you think he was wearing wrangler jeans | |
Noah Kagan | wrangler | |
Sam Parr | just like nor like kate mart jeans | |
Noah Kagan | Just like normal, he also had three security guards, cameras, and they checked the building—all that kind of stuff. I think I admired that he is a thinker, and it made me appreciate him.
I met him when I worked at Facebook, and I still remember this story. He bought into our poker game, then he had to go meet with Zuck. After he lost, he said, "Hey, can I get my money back?" Then Boz, who’s now like the CTO, was like, "Fuck no!" He asked.
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Sam Parr | for this money back | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, Peter did, and I was like, "I can't believe it."
Then also, we would say no to the guys, the main investor at the time. I think the other thing that I appreciated...
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Sam Parr | about this how much was the buy in | |
Noah Kagan | like $10 | |
Sam Parr | and he asked for it back | |
Noah Kagan | He asked for it back. I was like, "What are you doing, dude?" I was kind of surprised he wanted it back. But then I liked that Bob was like, "Fuck you."
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Sam Parr | and he said it exactly like that he said fuck you no | |
Noah Kagan |
No, no, no. He just was like, "No." And then the funny thing about that... I busted out, I don't know, maybe like 20 minutes later and I go outside, and his like half-a-million-dollar McLaren is sitting outside. I was like, "Alright, alright."
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Sam Parr | what did you tell him that do you remind him of of that story when you're with him recently | |
Noah Kagan | no I don't think he remembers me | |
Sam Parr | but yeah I | |
Noah Kagan | I think the second thing about him is that he's a very... I have my notes on him, and I don't mind sharing. I think he’s just a deep thinker. It felt like this guy is really... like him.
And this is another thing: him and Keith Rabois, and all these guys, they're a lot of history readers. They're deep, reading boring... well, I shouldn't say boring, but really dense books about 1900 history that I just won't... I'm not going to do that. I just don't do it.
I think that's where a lot of their advantage comes from. | |
Sam Parr |
So Ben, who's on this podcast, has this podcast that's on history. He just talks about historical figures and does a biography on them. It's incredibly fascinating. Right before you came on, we did a whole podcast on history and how you could learn... You basically could just not make the mistakes that other people have made just from reading about them.
So it's kind of interesting. Keith or Boy... I don't know Keith or Boy other than Twitter. Dude, he comes off like such a jerk on Twitter. I don't know if I wanna hang out with him, but I definitely would wanna meet Peter Thiel.
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Noah Kagan | Dude, Keith's a legend! I love me some Keith Raboy. Him and David Sacks... Oh, I don't listen to the All In show. I don't even mess with the hustle.
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Sam Parr | is he is he cool | |
Noah Kagan |
Keith is sharp. Keith doesn't really respond to me... he doesn't respond to me as much anymore because I've been trying to get him on my show, on the Noah Kagan Show. But he's just **fucking bright**, man. Like, the guy is very bright. I think he's very astute.
I also like people that have a... I think lately I'm more considerate, and I like when you're... He's at a level of wealth in the hundreds of millions that it's just like "fuck it," and he's like, "Yo, that guy's a dumbass. San Francisco's bullshit." I think this is... and I have a lot of admiration for anyone who has a [strong opinion].
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Sam Parr | I like that too. I just think that you could do it. I don't think that you need to be polite all the time. I'm an asshole too.
I just think that when you are a boss and you're a winner, if you pick on the weak ones publicly in a rude and abrupt way, it makes you look weak, soft, and like a bully. I don't like how that comes off online.
However, whenever I have seen interviews with him, he seems incredibly kind. Not kind, but polite... I don't know.
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Noah Kagan |
I mean, I think... I guess I also agree with his opinion, so I don't mind his approach. He's like, "Elizabeth Warren sucks, Miami is the best." Here's like businesses that I'm, you know, really bullish on.
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Sam Parr | so you like miami | |
Noah Kagan | I'm more neutral to it. I haven't spent enough time there. It seems appealing. I really wanted to go to Art Basel; that's on my bucket list, man! To see all the cool art and NFTs and just the vibe.
I'm not... I think every city has a calling when you get into it. Miami's never called me to live there when I visit, but it's enjoyable.
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Sam Parr | would you stay do you intend to stay in in austin for a while | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, I think it's also... if you ever feel like in life... I was feeling a little flat and frustrated with a lot of work shit going on, and you know, I don't know, I wanted a pity party. I think to take... to take a *power* party, you gotta get the fuck out. So like, I was in Albuquerque last week, I'm gonna go to Cabo this weekend, I'm gonna go to the Bay Area and LA in a few weeks. I think you need to get the fuck out sometimes, just change geography.
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Sam Parr | so tell me about peter thiel what do your notes say | |
Noah Kagan |
I would... okay, here's a shocker. This shocked me, Sam. If you had... he's probably worth like $10,000,000,000. I was like, "Peter, how much are you spending on longevity?" He's like, "Almost nothing."
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Sam Parr | what that's crazy I would like that's spent everything on that | |
Noah Kagan | I was like dude drop a bill give me a 1,000,000,000 I'll solve it | |
Sam Parr | so he doesn't spend anything on longevity | |
Noah Kagan | He spends very little. He's like, "I don't want to say how to say some of this stuff." He does some things, like mailing things to help, but it's very minimal. I thought he would be like, "Yeah, I have scientists on staff and I have an institute."
The other thing is, I was like, "Oh, do you have a crazy diet?" And he's like, "None of that really is going to move the needle dramatically." He said, "I eat dark chocolate cake at night." He was telling us how his assistant hides food from him so he doesn't eat it when he travels.
I was surprised to find that the guy who's a genius, which he is, is not hyper-disciplined. He's like, "No, I'm not," but he also knows he's not, so he accommodates. I think I was just shocked that he's not doing more for longevity.
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Sam Parr |
On the podcast, we talked about this guy named Brian Johnson who started Braintree. He's like a billionaire now, and he's got a whole website where you can look at how he's spending millions of dollars a year on longevity. You can go to his website and look at all the stuff that he's doing, and it's incredibly fascinating.
When I saw that, I thought, "This is exactly what you should do if you're that wealthy." I'm amazed that Peter Thiel doesn't do that.
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Noah Kagan | Yeah, that was shocking. I was shocked that he had low willpower. He talked to, you know, because you kind of watch all these videos and listen to the podcasts. It's like, "I wake up at 5, and I have celery, and I take a cold shower."
He's like, "No, I like eating chocolate cake," and he was drinking wine and eating carbs. I was like, "He's a human," which made me have a lot of appreciation for him.
I mean, I felt like he also was very generous, way more than I thought. He stayed and talked to us the whole time—like 4 hours—without checking his phone or tweeting any bullshit. He was very present, which I really appreciated.
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Sam Parr | I read this book with him and Ryan Holiday. Ryan Holiday said something really cool about him where he mentioned that if you ask him a question, he'll say, "Well, you know, some people believe this, other people think that, it's this, this, and this." He looks at all sides and he doesn't actually always tell his opinion.
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Noah Kagan | It's an interesting thought. I think one of the things he had was a lot of phrases. Do you want to hear a few of these? He just had these phrases, and I thought, "Man, these are great phrases."
**Look ahead function** - I thought that was good. What's that mean? Basically, it's about how you look when you're thinking about a decision. How are you looking ahead to what the outcome could be? I thought that was really clever.
**Zombification** - He's like, "Everyone is a dumbass. Everyone has the same thoughts." He's looking for anyone who has unique thoughts.
**Incremental versus monumental shifts** - Gotcha, that was...
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Sam Parr | a baller that's a baller one | |
Noah Kagan | That's a really good one: companies are mortal, cities are immortal.
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Sam Parr | Yeah, I was thinking about that. I was talking to Neville, and he goes, "Yeah, Peter told me about this." I was like, "Yeah, I think that's true." I was trying to think of a city in America that has just gone away, and one that was at least a mediocre city. And there's nothing.
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Noah Kagan |
Well, I think the thing that I never thought of that he had... I was like, "Woah, that's so interesting!"
He was trying to talk about how cities... You're kind of like a shareholder of a country, and I never thought about that. He's like, "You can..." you know, remote work is the worst thing that can happen to cities.
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Sam Parr | did he have an opinion about that | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, he thinks places like California and San Francisco are where people can vote now with their feet. So, the ability to work remotely now hurts them. | |
Sam Parr | yeah and and and I agree with that but doesn't he live in la | |
Noah Kagan | yeah | |
Sam Parr | that's kinda weird right | |
Noah Kagan | I admire that. I think I get annoyed when people are like, "I'm in Puerto Rico to save 4 nickels." I'm like, well, yeah, but you have to live there. Puerto Rico is actually not horrible.
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Sam Parr | yeah there's no fucking power for 2 weeks if there's a hurricane | |
Noah Kagan |
And look, there's... dude, you're on the beach. There's... I love Mexican food, it's got margaritas, it's got a good life. But the other side of that is like, is that how much is it worth to live a suboptimal life? And I admire that he's like, "Fuck it, I'm in LA. I'm gonna live baller even whatever tax rate this is."
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Sam Parr | I read that in that same book what's that ryan holiday book it's awesome | |
Noah Kagan | do you want me to tell you or not tell you | |
Sam Parr | No conspiracy or conspiracy theories or something. Yeah, that's it. Is that what a conspiracy theory is?
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Noah Kagan | conspiracy | |
Sam Parr | He's in that book. He said that wherever Peter Thiel goes, 24 hours a day, he's got a black Mercedes waiting for him.
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Noah Kagan | oh that that's what was outside the car that was outside the restaurant | |
Sam Parr | was it a black mercedes | |
Noah Kagan | yeah yeah he had a disco ball inside it was crazy | |
Sam Parr | And he and I, I think I'm almost positive he says it's running at all times. He tells them they have to have it running.
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Noah Kagan | that's really interesting | |
Sam Parr | In the book, that's what he said. He has a Mercedes for all the time, and apparently, he's got some residence or something in New Zealand. I think there's also a jet waiting for him in close vicinity wherever he's going. He goes there just in case anything bad happens; he could bolt to New Zealand.
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Noah Kagan | I think the question that I'm curious about, and that you got me thinking about for myself, for you, or for the audience, is: if we had $1,000,000,000, how would we live differently?
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Sam Parr | what do you think you'd do | |
Noah Kagan | You still want to do stuff, right? Like, you still want to work. Work is fun! People are like, "Oh..." It's like, dude, sit around all day and see how that goes.
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Sam Parr | fucking boring | |
Noah Kagan |
It's f***ing lame. Not too much, I think I would just do the things I'm doing at a higher level now. I would like... not worry about buying houses. I'm not sure. Dude, I don't know. The AppSumo stuff is hard. I don't think I would pay right away to get out of it, but I'd try to figure something else out. It's tough. I've got another year or two in it for this role, then probably buy houses. I was just trying to figure out how to adjust the work to only do the area I want.
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Sam Parr | I would accumulate large amounts of land and create nice residences on all of them. This way, my friends and I can just go and enjoy ourselves. It's so rare that we can go someplace and do whatever we want, and that's exciting for me.
That's what we should do! Do we have any friends that have lots of land where we can go shoot guns, drive motorcycles, and just be like 12-year-olds? That's what I'm going to be doing.
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Noah Kagan | I thought what you were going to say. I was really hoping Sam's answer would be like, "You know, I would take that $1,000,000,000 and give it out to the world."
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Sam Parr | Well, I'm not giving it to the world, but I would like anything. I felt bad. Remember that Tony Hsieh? Tony Hsieh, the guy from Zappos, you know?
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Noah Kagan | that's sad | |
Sam Parr | It was sad, and when I saw that, I thought, "Man, I wish it didn't go that way." But at the same time, he would travel with an entourage, and I'm like, "That is sick."
You know, the substance abuse issues were bad, but wherever I went, I would just say, "Crew, who's coming with?"
I have a friend, this guy who started Jungle Scout, Greg Mercer. He bought these fancy seats to Formula 1, and I don't know how much it cost, but I bet you that box cost $50,000 to $100,000. He was like, "Hey, do you want to come?"
I just had cheap tickets, and he said, "We took care of everything." I was like, "What? How much is it? I'll pay you." He goes, "No, no, no, it's cool, man. It's fun. I like sharing."
He brought me, and it was awesome. He told me stories about how he takes people to Telluride. If he's doing cool stuff, he's like, "Hey, anyone who wants to come, come with me." It sounds awesome. That's what I want to do.
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Noah Kagan |
I did, I think I told you this, I did my will like a year ago. It was kind of surreal. I was like, "Oh, I guess I'm gonna maybe die one day." But then it really inspired me to live while I'm here and spend the money now while I'm here.
Even with my brother, I'm like, "Do you want to kill me and get the money now, or can I just give you some of it now?" It's just exciting to start thinking about how to live like you have the will and... live like you're dead. And enjoy the money with friends like you're talking about. I think that's a great way to approach it.
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Sam Parr | Do you... are you going to have kids anytime soon? I mean, it feels weird making a will where you have to give things to your mom and your brother.
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Noah Kagan | yeah my brother has a kid which I was like that guy's gonna get all this money like that's crazy | |
Sam Parr | it's not even yours | |
Noah Kagan | yeah it's not even mine or it's not his | |
Sam Parr | It feels weird that you love him, but he's not your kid. It's not your blood or your... you know.
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Noah Kagan | It is part some blood. I think genetically, some... yeah, I think I'll have kids. I mean, maybe I'll go to a sperm bank and just donate a ton. Then each of those kids gets like a million. Maybe they each get a Cryptopunk.
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Sam Parr | Yeah, shit, we're gonna wrap up here in a minute, but this has been a meandering episode. I actually think it's gonna go over kind of well. I think people are gonna dig it. | |
Noah Kagan |
You know, I got nothing to say to that. I... I thought it's interesting. I mean, we talked about a variety of subjects and then... what do people want out of the show? Why do you think people listen? Someone to like, entertain? Like empty calories?
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Sam Parr | frankly | |
Noah Kagan | advice | |
Sam Parr | So, there are a few things.
1. I will say I'm shocked anyone listens, but at this point, we're at over a million downloads a month now, which is crazy. Some episodes get like 50, 60, or even 70,000 downloads, which is pretty wild.
2. Shockingly, people find us funny. That's what the comments say, which amazes me.
3. I would say Sean's really good. I think a lot of people listen for him.
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Noah Kagan | You're good too, man. You did a good follow-on. I mean, I think what it is, is you're one of the only ones left podcasting. Like, everyone gave up a few years ago, and you're like, "No one told you," so you kept going.
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Sam Parr | it's been so hard | |
Noah Kagan |
It is hard, man, but I think that's... you know, you forget. My mom always says this: "You forget how hard the last lap is." And I think sometimes when you just kind of push through, you're like, "Oh, I guess that wasn't so hard." And the further away you get from it...
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Sam Parr | well did is youtube easier you think | |
Noah Kagan | It's hard. You could... what defines easy, right? It's the bullshit answer.
Well, yeah, it's challenging in a different way. I think the intimacy of an audience is really high with podcasts. They're really spending a lot of time with you.
YouTube, on the other hand, it's harder to be successful on it. I think it's harder... I don't know if "harder" is the right word, but there is a broader audience available for you to reach.
So that's why I spend all my time there. That's why I stopped podcasting, more or less. I still have my show, "Noah Cagan Presents," but you know, of my content creation and audience building, 95% of that is in the YouTube world. That's so hard for people to do. You can't just go...
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Sam Parr | it's so hard it's so hard | |
Noah Kagan | I know you put out a video like, "Well, all of it takes forever." It's just like, I think the bullshit answer is to find the thing that you could work on forever.
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Sam Parr | my video that I I made my first youtube video I'm gonna start doing 1 a week it got 3,000 views baby | |
Noah Kagan | which one the drinking one | |
Sam Parr | no the the real estate one about my project how many views I have | |
Noah Kagan | 4,000 views 2,400 that's good man | |
Sam Parr | Look, dude, I didn't even remove the Descript logo at the bottom because it cost $25. I was like, "I don't know if I'm going to even do this next month."
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Noah Kagan | did you edit yourself yeah good for you | |
Sam Parr | there's there's no editing there's just like I splice clips together | |
Noah Kagan | how was it for you how was this experience doing it | |
Sam Parr | It sucks. I hated it, but it's cool to see the result. I understand why it's... you know, who the best at... here's the best YouTuber I think out right now. He's out of this world: Nick Bare.
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Noah Kagan | oh dude love nick bare | |
Sam Parr | Nick Bare is the best YouTuber I've been seeing lately. The other day, he put out basically a documentary, and he's doing like one or two a week. He did a documentary on the Leadville 100, this 100-mile race he did. Nick Bare is the most impressive YouTuber I've seen lately. Do you agree with that?
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Noah Kagan | have you had him on your show | |
Sam Parr | yeah but it was a little bit more it was before he was really famous | |
Noah Kagan |
Nick is just dope, man. He's just like a good dude, and when you find out he started his business at 4 AM while he was on base in Korea, you're like, "Damn!"
I'm not surprised when people are successful. I'm like, "Oh yeah, totally." You put in the work and you stuck with it for a long time. That's it.
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Sam Parr | did you meet him in person yeah it's awesome is he just yoked | |
Noah Kagan | yeah yeah I'm gonna I think I'm gonna work out with him next month or in january | |
Sam Parr | oh you just stuck with him | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, I think part of it is like, you know, I've said this before: most of my net worth is from who I know. So Nick, I gotta meet him and help out his stuff, he helps me out. But there's certain people that you see, like Nick, that you're just like, "Yeah man, I hope you get there." And he's getting there obviously.
There's just people you wanna see succeed. I think people don't wanna see me and you succeed, Sam, but they... we... they just can't stop us. Some do, some are like, "Noah, why do you say that? I wanna see you succeed." But I think it's just... it's not...
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Sam Parr | enough to stop you you and I are are very punchable | |
Noah Kagan | that's why we do boxing we let other people have a chance to punch us | |
Sam Parr | let me ask you a last question what what what can I learn from nick from you knowing him | |
Noah Kagan | oh I would definitely have him back on the show | |
Sam Parr | When he was on the show, he was super... almost naive. It felt like, not in a bad way, where he was learning as we were talking to him. He acted like he was unaware of certain things, and I'm like, "Dude, I know you know about this." But you're just like a sponge, and you're just trying to get me to tell you everything. So, he was just interesting. He just felt like a student.
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Noah Kagan | Yeah, that's... I mean, that could be as... I don't know if he's trying to be strategic about that. I think that's interesting.
I don't know, I guess with Nick, I'm impressed by his involvement. From someone who was a Marine, or I think he was a Ranger, to a business operator. Also, he's kind of in a, to some extent, commoditized space, right? Like the sugar powder... yeah, the powder that everyone gets from the same place, but you put a different sticker on it.
I think I've been impressed specifically with Nick, how he evolved from, you know, I'll be straight, like a meathead jock lifter to, like, a content creator at an elite level, especially in storytelling. I think his physical fitness is really well-rounded.
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Sam Parr | So, a well-rounded man—who on earth can weigh 195 pounds, squat 500 pounds, and run a 3-hour marathon? It's so interesting. | |
Noah Kagan | there's a lot of there's a lot of good youtubers out there man it's just unbelievable how much great content is being created | |
Sam Parr | who do you like we'll wrap up with that who do you like | |
Noah Kagan |
Let's look at my home page. Obviously, Noah Kagan, Colin and Samir are studs. I love Colin and Samir. Oh dude, you know who's the best? Andrew Callahan, Channel 5. He was the "All Gas No Brakes" guy.
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Sam Parr | wait what | |
Noah Kagan |
Oh, he is! Dude, watch the Chet Bake so... Channel 5 with Andrew Callahan. Watch the "Pickup Artist Boot Camp" or Chet Paints.
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Sam Parr | yeah this guy he used to be part of like a business that he bailed on | |
Noah Kagan | he was I think for vice or something like that | |
Sam Parr | all gas no brakes yeah | |
Noah Kagan |
Yeah, he's sick. Colin and Samir are sick, specifically on creators. I like... watch... dude, my weird freaky fetish lately is just... I love watching outdoor survival [videos].
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Sam Parr | same which ones | |
Noah Kagan | who's the guy in ohio dave canterbury so I watched dave canterbury | |
Sam Parr | yeah I'm just writing all these down dave canterbury | |
Noah Kagan | yeah dave canterbury architectural digest is gangster I love seeing like celebrity homes | |
Sam Parr | do you like primitive technologies | |
Noah Kagan | I think I've seen them. I think I... I'm pretty aggressive on unsubscribing. For some reason, I unsubscribe from them. Let's see.
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Sam Parr | dude I'm looking at dave canterbury he looks amazing this is exactly how I want my guys to look | |
Noah Kagan | well have you watched the show alone | |
Sam Parr | no oh on hulu yes were there like hulu | |
Noah Kagan | have you met the | |
Sam Parr | Like with the guy that looks like he's wearing bearskin around. He looks like a Native American, the white dude, but he's like, "I actually don't know where he is." And there's another guy who was... | |
Noah Kagan | in the | |
Sam Parr | caves of missouri | |
Noah Kagan |
There's a bunch of weird... people in there, but dude, it's epic. So I definitely would recommend "Alone". I like all the survival stuff from that.
I watch a lot of... dude, this is the weirdest one: I watch a lot of squash videos. I probably watch like... like it's on right now. Watch this while you're talking to me, Sam. I have it on in the background.
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Sam Parr | like hydraulic hydraulic press | |
Noah Kagan | no squash like the game like the british game | |
Sam Parr | why are you watching that | |
Noah Kagan |
I just leave it on. It's just like white noise I put on in the background. So I watch a lot of that on YouTube. That's kind of... a lot of that's the main things: outdoor survival, architecture, of course Neville, and yeah, that's about it.
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Sam Parr | it alright well ben what do we think | |
Noah Kagan | what other wait wait | |
Sam Parr | wait what what are you gonna say | |
Noah Kagan | well I I I'll tell you some I'll tell you another good book I read man I'll tell a weird one that people | |
Sam Parr | have to talk all crime books so like it's like call it like | |
Noah Kagan | a real murder mystery | |
Sam Parr | Well, yeah, I like that. But I just like one on 911, another one.
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Noah Kagan | favorite book this year | |
Sam Parr | **Favorite book this year? Okay, you're gonna like this one because you do this. It's called *Travels with Charley: In Search of America*, written by John Steinbeck in 1930.**
John Steinbeck, you know, is a famous author. He was like, "I live in Cape Cod and I'm rich now. I'm in my sixties. I've been reading and writing about middle America for the past 50 years, and I'm so out of touch right now."
So, he just drives his pickup truck around America, talks to people, and writes about it. It's amazing!
Do you know who Lieutenant Dan is in *Forrest Gump*?
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Noah Kagan | yeah yeah | |
Sam Parr | He’s the narrator of the audiobook. Oh, not a good one? That’s a good one. And then *Empire of the Summer Moon*—you’d like that one. It’s about... oh, I... | |
Noah Kagan | heard that one what's this | |
Sam Parr | The Comanche Indians... they're just nutty. Like, the Texans were evil, and the Indians were evil to each other. The Indians and the Texans were just... it's about how they just destroy each other.
Then finally, the operator, which is basically the guy who killed Bin Laden, tells the story of finding Bin Laden, and that was...
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Noah Kagan | like too some of these military books are kinda weak not that I'm just | |
Sam Parr | that one was pretty spectacular | |
Noah Kagan | yeah | |
Sam Parr | He talks about finding... He goes in-depth about hunting down Bin Laden and shooting him in the head. It's intense.
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Noah Kagan | alright a few questions here 1 do you get books from the library at all | |
Sam Parr | no but either you or neville have been bragging about how amazing it is | |
Noah Kagan |
Dude, I'm a huge library guy. There's a Chrome extension called Library Extension that'll show you if you can get digital or audiobooks for free, and it shows you when you go to Amazon. You just put in "Austin Library." It's... dude, I use it all the time.
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Sam Parr | how do they make money | |
Noah Kagan | I just donate I don't know how they actually make money | |
Sam Parr | okay | |
Noah Kagan |
But I booked more... Thank you for those books, dude. Yeah, Library Extension - you just add the Austin Library one.
One book I read recently, dude, that is so good, I think you'll really enjoy it. It's called "Free Country." It's about two guys in Europe who backpack... They try to go from the bottom of the UK to the top of the UK biking, and they just start in their underwear. That's all they start with.
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Sam Parr | is it amazing wow what | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, so they start at the bottom of the UK in their underwear. That's it. They have to get to the top of the UK on a bike in 3 weeks.
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Sam Parr | It's really good. It got like crazy good reviews. Audiobook or download, or audiobook or normal?
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Noah Kagan | I think the audiobook is good dude alright I think I I got it at the library for free | |
Sam Parr | oh and it's on kindle unlimited it's free on kindle | |
Noah Kagan | dude hell yeah | |
Sam Parr | alright I'm I'm gonna do that any other ones | |
Noah Kagan | that one was awesome I really enjoyed that I didn't know if you wanted more | |
Sam Parr | Let's see, dude. We're reading the same travel stuff, so I'll give you another one then.
Oh, "Little Golden America." In the 1930s, two Russian journalists from the USSR were welcomed into America. They traveled for four months all over America, and they're like, "You know, it's pretty crazy in America."
They just explained from their perspective what America is about. They're like, "In America, everyone's so optimistic." For example, we met these guys. It's cool, and no one knows about it in America, but it's one of the most popular books in Russia.
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Noah Kagan | In Russia, you book read... What else? Oh, there are some other good ones. Did you read about the dude? You know, Ryan Holiday's book list is really good.
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Sam Parr | his email list | |
Noah Kagan | his email list he just recommends books | |
Sam Parr | I don't know how he could he consumes so much | |
Noah Kagan | I don't know dude he's like audiobook speed | |
Sam Parr | it's like 10 a month there's no way he he does an audiobook | |
Noah Kagan | No, I think he reads. He probably has to use paper, and if it's not this certain density of organic paper, I won't read it.
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Sam Parr | he once said if you're not taking notes then you're not reading effectively | |
Noah Kagan | I think that's true | |
Sam Parr | yeah but that's like a I mean I'm not gonna take notes on like killing up bin laden | |
Noah Kagan | I don't think but most of the books on kindle are physical I either highlight and then I'll reread them | |
Sam Parr | Yeah, but dude, if I'm just listening to a book about these guys walking around in their underwear trying to get from place to place, I'm not gonna, you know, or like "Fight Club," I'm not gonna write notes. Any other ones?
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Noah Kagan | dude trevor noah's book I was like I don't care about that guy | |
Sam Parr | everyone talks about that book | |
Noah Kagan | it's it's just a really well written book | |
Sam Parr | is that good | |
Noah Kagan |
Well, it's like David Goggins' book. I'm like, "Alright David, you're gonna yell at me. You're really hardcore, I get it. You could do push-ups or pull-ups, that's great."
His book, if you haven't read David's... like everyone talked about it. It's honestly:
1. Very well written
2. Just a great story
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Sam Parr | it's just a fun story book is cool too | |
Noah Kagan | yeah him the wright brothers I got that | |
Sam Parr | oh I read that one recently amazing | |
Noah Kagan | that was awesome | |
Sam Parr | I drove to dayton ohio after I read it because it was so good | |
Noah Kagan | oh that's good did you read million little pieces | |
Sam Parr | no what's that one | |
Noah Kagan | I actually think you'll like that one it's about drug addiction | |
Sam Parr | fuck you | |
Noah Kagan | No, but it's a true story. That's the crazy part. So, I really enjoyed that. These are just ones from this year.
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Sam Parr | Alright, I'm gonna read... wait, I think this guy, James Frey, "A Million Little Pieces," didn't he? Isn't he famous for a bunch of stuff?
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Noah Kagan | yeah he actually wrote a few other books and then there's some like drama about him | |
Sam Parr | Oh, they say that he lied about his book. My, my... yeah, apparently it's made up.
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Noah Kagan | There's debate about that. It seems like, for the most part, a lot of it is not made up, and there are just a few pieces that are.
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Sam Parr | yeah I remember this because he went on oprah years years ago and there was this big controversy | |
Noah Kagan | Well, she talked shit on him and then she actually apologized. I believe because after you read the book, you're like, "Is this real or not real? I can't believe it."
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Sam Parr | that's how crazy it is | |
Noah Kagan | yeah | |
Sam Parr | Alright, I'm gonna read it. This is good; this is the best part. I'm gonna read all these things. I mean, I try to walk a lot, so I listen to all these audiobooks. I'm gonna download this one, *A Million Little Pieces*. I'm gonna get the guys doing their underwear thing, and I already installed the library extension.
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Noah Kagan | bro game over con this little golden america do they have an audiobook or it's just paperback | |
Sam Parr | You can do a paperback, or you can find free PDFs online. Did you see the description of it? It's interesting. There are like no reviews of it, but on the first page, they say, "We translated this into Russian and yet no one in America knows about this." However, in Russia, everyone reads this book in schools. This is like the kids' summer reading for schools; it's very, very, very popular. Do you see it?
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Noah Kagan | yeah how did you hear about this | |
Sam Parr | Goodreads recommended it to me when I was reading *In Search of America*, the John Steinbeck book. I loved that; it was one of the best. I got addicted to it.
It randomly popped up in the recommended section and had 5 out of 5 stars on Goodreads, with about 3,000 reviews. However, when I Googled it, I couldn't find anything about it, so I was like, "This is kind of intriguing." Did you look it up on Goodreads?
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Noah Kagan |
I do not look at it on Goodreads. It's so funny, Goodreads... I saw someone talk about this, maybe it was you. It was like the site that hasn't been updated since like 1960, but it's still dope. It's still... there's just... there's nothing better yet.
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Sam Parr |
It's badass. The guy who started Goodreads spoke at Hustle Con. His name's Otis Chandler, and his grandpa started the LA Times. Otis sold [Goodreads] to Amazon for like $1 billion, I think. Either I think it was a billion or $100 million, but he sold it to them like 10 years ago or something like that. So he just knocked it out of the park.
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Noah Kagan | Do you ever get blown away by how many awesome books are out there that we don't even know about? Like, this book existed, and I never even heard of it. It's got a ton of reviews, and I'm like, "I did not know that!"
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Sam Parr | Yeah, and I've always thought, "I want to read all this." But then, you know, I started thinking one time I listened to *Think and Grow Rich* on audiobook, and I loved the narrator. I was like, "I want to remember that narrator or the audio guy. I want to remember his voice because he's so good."
I looked at what else he had done, and he's read like a thousand self-help books. I'm like, "Wait a minute, you've read all these and you're still making $50 an hour to read these damn books? What the hell, man? This is not effective."
So after that, I almost quit reading business books or self-development books entirely.
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Noah Kagan | That's just boring. I'd rather read biographies or, like, I'm reading this book, this running book, right now.
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Sam Parr | out of thin air oh the best right | |
Noah Kagan | I just started it's really interesting I'm liking like I guess outdoor activity books so | |
Sam Parr | well out of thin air that's not that's a different one wait out of thin air | |
Noah Kagan | oh you're thinking of the one about the guy in alaska | |
Sam Parr | who what's out of thin air oh it's about the kenya | |
Noah Kagan | Yeah, this guy goes and runs with Kenyans. I think it went into thin air, the John Krakauer one.
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Sam Parr | Which is also awesome. But, okay, someone gifted me this book, *Out of Thin Air*, and I wasn't sure if it was that good. Is it amazing?
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Noah Kagan | So far, it's pretty interesting. I mean, I'd go read "Free Country." That one is like, I didn't want to read it because I didn't want it to be over.
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Sam Parr | I'll read it | |
Noah Kagan | alright I gotta rock this was good |