How to Buy Distressed Assets, How to Network with Codie Sanchez | My First Million Ep. #176
Distressed Assets, Tiny Homes, and Financial Freedom - April 28, 2021 (almost 4 years ago) • 59:51
Transcript:
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Codie Sanchez | Most people should not be out there trying to build the next Facebook. I think it's kind of messed up that a lot of people try to tell others that's what they should do.
Most people want **Maslow's hierarchy of needs**, right? You want your family taken care of, you want food on the table, and you want to be able to do the things you enjoy on the weekends. That's it.
So, I actually like the idea of a portfolio better—a portfolio of small bets. I think about buying businesses a lot like I think about buying stocks.
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Shaan Puri | Sam, you showed up! I thought you were too hungover from last night's pod that went until 2 in the morning to show up today.
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Sam Parr | Dude, it went later for me. I mean, I didn't go to bed until 4. What time did you... what time was it over for you?
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Shaan Puri | It ended, but my brain didn't turn off. I don't even know if I slept last night.
So, Cody, we had Vology on the pod yesterday, and I don't know if you know him.
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Codie Sanchez | he's kind | |
Shaan Puri | He's a real smart dude, and he definitely has a ton of different ideas and thoughts. He's super, super smart from a math perspective, science, and technically for computer science.
So, he was rattling off a bunch of interesting things. But when he left and I was going to sleep, I was lying in bed with my dog. My mind was straight up making up scientific theories in my head. You know that state where you're dreaming but you're kind of half asleep?
I was half asleep, but my mind was like, "Oh, but then the vector has to go to the scalar, and then it has to... you know, the order of magnitude." Then I'd wake up and be like, "What the fuck am I talking about? What the fuck is going through my head? This is not even... this is gibberish. This is scientific gibberish."
That straight up happened the whole night. So, not a great night.
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Codie Sanchez | Be prepared to be underwhelmed in comparison to him today. I think that's the moral of the story.
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Sam Parr | Well, he’s just like... we've had, I think, one other person on the podcast. I guess Michael Saylor could be this, but I for sure think that Rahul from Superhuman was like this.
There are a handful of people we've talked to, and you know how people say, "Oh, that person's a genius"? They don't really mean it. But if we define genius as just a certain IQ, I would bet a lot of money that he was the highest IQ person that I've ever had a conversation with. It was very obvious.
He actually tried really hard to hide it in that he acted nice and friendly. There were times where he was like, "Sorry, you guys probably don't understand that. Let me try to re-explain it." That was actually pretty cool.
But he’s just smarter than me. His oven just burns hotter, and there's nothing I could do to try to understand that. I remember one time, I don’t want to embarrass Sean, but like, biology was telling something, and he used a math metaphor. He was like, "The vector..." | |
Shaan Puri | He's like, "What I try to find is the dot product between me and this." I was like, "Dot product? I remember that from 8th grade." I heard this phrase 15 years ago, didn't understand it then, and never thought about it again.
Then he's referencing it for the way he thinks about something. He's like, "You know, so I try to find the dot product." And I was like, "Fuck, I don't know what that means."
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Sam Parr | But he went from math. He was talking about math to discuss an idea, and then he moved to this one battle of some type of chemistry, the Battle of the Bulge.
Then he goes to Sean and says, "Sean, you know, like at the Battle of the Bulge, right?" And Sean was like, "Yeah," but he's obnoxious. I don't think he knew what the Battle of the Bulge was.
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Codie Sanchez | world war four | |
Shaan Puri | I was | |
Sam Parr | Like, yeah, yeah. Anyway, it was an interesting podcast, but this isn't about him; this is about you.
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Codie Sanchez | That's what the PD is for. Sometimes I'm kind of glad I'm not like that, honestly. Could you imagine how Sean felt that last night? Could you imagine being in his head every day or at a dinner with normal people? He probably wants to kill himself.
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, we even asked him about that stuff. We were like, you know, we asked a whole bunch of questions that were, I hope, not even condescending. But we were kind of like, "Were you always like this? What's your family like? Were you like an oddball to them, or was this totally normal?"
Because I've never met somebody like you, so I want to know, what's your life like? What do you do for fun? You know, how does this all work?
So we asked him a bunch of goofy questions like that. Actually, unfortunately, the best, the very best part was at the end, after the recording ended. We just kind of, after a three-and-a-half-hour podcast, shot the shit for like 30 minutes, and it was great. His guard was totally down, and that was awesome.
Then Sam started helping him with his newsletter tips, and he was like taking notes, saying, "Oh, this is great! This is awesome stuff!" Ironically, that was the best and simplest part of the podcast.
We had like three and a half hours of good stuff, but in a way, you said it, his oven burns hotter than ours. So, you know, I didn't feel like we were able to really add too much to the conversation or really steer it because I was like riding a bronco that I didn't know how to ride. Basically, it was too smart for me.
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Codie Sanchez | I love that can't wait to hear it yes | |
Shaan Puri | Good news! Anyway, with that out of the way, welcome to our guest, Cody.
So, Cody, how do you explain yourself when you introduce yourself? You have a newsletter that's pretty cool, you know, the "Country and Cash Flow" newsletter. You also have an investment fund and a business there. You have built and owned businesses, and I think you hold the majority share in some of them.
So, how do you describe this jack of all trades? Like, "Hi, I'm Cody, here's what I do." What do you say?
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Codie Sanchez | Well, I think if I'm on an airplane sitting next to somebody, I usually tell them I'm a salesperson so I don't have to talk too much.
But in a conversation where I was trying to impress somebody, you know, I'd probably say I'm an investor. I am a private equity investor. I run a fund that's about a couple hundred million dollars focused on cannabis. Before that, I did emerging markets, raising a couple billion dollars there.
Now, I write about all the things I wish I knew when I was first figuring out anything to do with this green language of money. I do that at Country and Thinking, and I mail the two.
But I think these days that's not that weird. There's a ton of VCs, but not so many PE investors out there probably that write about investing and share their ideas. I kind of think that's probably the future and where it's going going forward.
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Sam Parr | You know, I didn't know that. I knew that you have the newsletter, but so you have... you've run a $200,000,000 on myself.
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Codie Sanchez | There are five partners, but we have a $200,000,000 cannabis private equity fund. We invest in companies that generate between $10,000,000 and $50,000,000 in revenue. It's called **Entourage Effect Capital**, and we've invested in 67 companies thus far.
Some cool ones that you all would know include six unicorns, such as **GTI (Green Thumb Industries)**, **Acreage**, **Canopy Growth**, and **Curaleaf**. I don't know if you're big weed connoisseurs, but those are some notable names.
Additionally, we have a smaller fund of about $20,000,000 for micro private equity. That's just me and a couple of other partners' money, where we buy small businesses. If the cannabis fund is sort of fancy and trendy, the other one is super boring—things that your father did when you were growing up and you didn't tell people about.
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Shaan Puri | And that's like, give us examples. We're talking laundromats. We're talking... what are we talking about? Plumbing businesses? What do you look at?
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, actually, the first one was a plumbing deal. We started it because my uncle Ebb had a $5,000,000 business. Let me make sure I get the numbers right: he was doing about $2,000,000 to $3,000,000 in profit. He was old, you know, in his 70s, and he grew up in a sharecropping family. He didn't know anything about the business world.
When he came to retire, he didn't know anything about mergers and acquisitions (M&A). So instead of selling the company, he basically just wound it down. He took a company that had $2,000,000 to $3,000,000 in profit and just let everybody go, sort of winding down the business. I thought that was a real waste.
So we realized, wait a second, there's actually a business model here. It's called private equity (PE). I've been doing it for 12 years at Goldman, Vanguard, State Street, and all these different firms. Why not apply this to these micro-sized businesses, anything below $3 million? Instead of us making a bunch of money for other people, we can make money for ourselves.
We ended up taking an offshoot of Ebb Homes Plumbing. You can look it up; it's in Phoenix. We bought another plumbing company, rolled it in, and sold that one. That was a little tiny company. I've done it for a bunch of others, and now we own laundromats, a podcast production company, some lawn care businesses, and a professional services business in the cleaning space. So, a slew of tiny, sort of boring businesses. Most of the time, I don't operate any of them; there's somebody else that's an operator in them, or we place somebody in the business.
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Shaan Puri | We love this model. Sam and I, along with a couple of our best friends, started a kind of micro private equity firm. We invested in it, and I think we have been... I don't know, Sam, how closely you track them, but I've been learning a ton as they look at all these different deals.
It just seems like there's this huge generational shift of people who are aging out of their businesses and need to hand them off. The kids don't want to take it over necessarily, or aren't able to, or whatever.
So basically, the boomers are handing over businesses. There are just so many businesses that are beautiful, $5 million to $15 million a year, profitable, with a super steady book of business. You can buy these out at super reasonable multiples.
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Sam Parr | Yeah, it's like a 65 or 70-year-old mom and dad whose kids went to a good school. They're like, "I'd rather work at Facebook than run the movie company. Please, I don't want to do that." So, they're like, "Alright, what do we do now?"
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Codie Sanchez | a 100% | |
Sam Parr | And that's what these guys are buying. It's going great! I get their updates, and they're making a lot of money.
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Shaan Puri | can you for them | |
Codie Sanchez | yeah and | |
Shaan Puri | For me, I'm like, "Yes! Can you draw a quick line?" So, let's do a quick hop through the resume because I think where you're at now is super interesting. Anytime I meet somebody who's in a really interesting spot, I'm like, "How the hell did you get there?"
So, you said something about Goldman, but without going into the details of, "Oh, I did this and here's how it went," just sort of like, "I went to school thinking I'd do this. My first job was here, my second job was here, my third job was here, and now I'm here." Can you give us that?
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Codie Sanchez | that sheet and sweet so I went to school totally unrelated to anything financial I'm not really a finance nerd at the core I started off in human trafficking and drug smuggling as a journalist not doing it but along the u s.-mexico border so so I was covering things like you know old people being left behind at the border and went with a couple coyotes and actually saw what the process was like and anyway super young at the time I thought I was going to change the world realize like ah britney spears shaves her head and nobody cares about these stories so maybe there's a different way and so anyway so moved from journalism to had my little quarter life crisis and decided that maybe I wanted to understand finance because my last name's sanchez all these people's last name was sanchez juarez whatever the case may be and I was in a very different position than they were so I was like what's the difference why are they there and I'm here and I think the only difference is green it's not actually even that I'm american and so went to from there I got recruited to go to vanguard accelerated development program saw a bunch of parts of finance didn't understand any of it but journalists we ask a lot of questions so I was pretty decent at that so asked a lot of questions got from vanguard they're all about passive investing right so create an index that was at the very beginning etfs and create an index and replicate and replicate and replicate and I thought that was cool but not that sexy or fun so I went to goldman and I wanted to understand active how do we do ipos what do these alternatives look like is there more margin then went from goldman to state street ran international investment business for state street at the time and then left did a jv with a company called first trust and built out their international portion so I grew the business to a couple billion in latin america and and basically we sold products to big pensions sovereign wealth funds etcetera and then after that business I was ready to exit myriad of reasons and looking for the next emerging markets and I started invested in cannabis a few years back but real quiet wasn't sure my mom would approve and and then went full in as a partner into eec | |
Sam Parr | What's your heritage? You said that you're... are you talking about the fourth?
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Codie Sanchez | my my father is half so I'm half spanish half mexican | |
Sam Parr | are you catholic | |
Codie Sanchez | yes | |
Sam Parr | Me too. So, a Mexican Catholic mother probably wasn't a fan of what you're doing.
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Codie Sanchez | Baby's a weed financier. She was really excited about it, just wanting to make Daddy proud. But, you know, I think once we kind of understood... I mean, here's my pitch on cannabis. Once we kind of understood the psychoactive portion of it and the benefits for those who are overusing opioids, like I got her around to it.
But certainly upfront, she was not thrilled about that. But that's when you know, right? When people think you're a little crazy for doing something, there's usually at least some opportunity left. Otherwise, all the smart people would have moved first. And I'm not smarter than anybody else; I'm just better at maybe finding some early emerging markets that people won't go into yet.
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Shaan Puri | And I thought you would be a great guest for two reasons.
**A)** I went on your show, and you were so prepared. I'm not anywhere near as prepared for this as you were for me, unfortunately. But I knew enough to think, "Oh, she's great at talking," which is like half the battle.
**B)** The other half is, "Oh wait, she's wicked smart with a bunch of industries that I think people don't know a ton about."
So, micro private equity (PE) — I know there's a lot of people interested, but for most people, it's a little daunting. They don't understand how to identify the businesses, how to value them, how to buy them, and what to do after you buy them, that sort of thing.
The same thing goes for cannabis. People kind of know it's a big market, but if you're not spending every day in that world, you don't know how it's going or what's been growing.
So, you sent us a bunch of things. You sent us ideas on the micro PE side, you sent us ideas on the cannabis side, and then you sent us some controversial thoughts.
Sam, where do you want to start of those three?
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Sam Parr | The ideas, particularly the ones she posted in trends about mailboxes, are interesting. You just have like 5 or 8 different things that I think are interesting. They're not like huge home runs, but they're small business entrepreneur ideas—stuff that an immigrant who came from nothing would start and then eventually did it for 30 years. So, let's...
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Shaan Puri | Wrap it up! Let's rapid-fire them. Here's how we'll do it: you sent us this bullet list. I'm just going to say the phrase, and you'd be like, "Okay, so here's what I'm thinking."
Then, if we just want to switch, if I'm like, "Oh, okay, that's great," I'm just going to throw another one at you, and then you go from there. I think you'll be able to volley these pretty well.
Alright, so let's do that. One: mailbox money. What are you thinking about here?
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Codie Sanchez | So, this is Pack and Ship Centers. Basically, think FedEx or UPS, except get rid of the franchise fees because that's 25% of your profit off the top. Instead, you just put "Sam and Sean's Shipping Center" on the front of it.
What I didn't realize is that my friend Lisa did it. I'm always curious about my people who make money in ways that are repeatable. Since I'm not smart enough, like Balaji or whatever his name is, to create the next Tesla, I just want a bunch of stuff that cash flows now.
With this, you know how everybody's obsessed with storage units? Everybody builds these storage centers, and that's been like some sexy thing, right? That's really just a riff on how everybody was obsessed with multifamily and apartments beforehand. They're going smaller and smaller but still trying to get as much profit as possible.
Well, that's what Pack and Chips are. Essentially, the money is not in the taping of boxes and the stuffing to make sure stuff doesn't break. It's actually in the little mailboxes in the front.
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Shaan Puri | I was going to ask you, what do you think of this PO Box rental?
At first, I like the trend, which is you're buying a box of real estate and you want kind of these low-operation rental units. So, okay, self-storage. But now, you shrink the self-storage unit. Instead of being a 100 square foot little room, you're shrinking it down into a 1 square foot box that you're renting out for $20.
What you were saying, so let's just do the bathroom quick on this. You're saying 200 boxes in a location, roughly? Is that right?
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Codie Sanchez | 200 would be what you don't want that's ups fedex go a 1,000 | |
Shaan Puri | Okay, okay, okay, gotcha. Now the math works. So, 1,000 boxes average $15 a month for renting out the PO boxes.
How do you get customers? What does your friend Lisa do to get customers? How does she acquire these PO box tenants?
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Codie Sanchez | Well, I think the smartest way was what I talked her into doing. She built the first store, which took a year and a half to become profitable because she had to do what you were just talking about.
It's not really that complex of a business; it's ads, so PPC (pay-per-click), and dropping actual hard mailings in the surrounding neighborhood. It's things like setting up a book display out front, little pop-ups for the neighborhood where you can get free packing if you ship on a certain day, all that kind of stuff. You know, those squiggly arm things that you put outside of a new unit— all that stuff.
But for the second store, I told her to buy an already existing store that had customers. Then she just upsold them, and that's a much easier way to do it. You buy the store for about 2 to 3 times its profit. Her second store she got for about 1.5 times the profit because it was a retiring owner. Then she was able to take that business and sort of double the revenue for that one.
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Shaan Puri | I like this idea. I actually might steal this idea because I just rented out a big warehouse for my wife's business.
One thing we could do is just put a bunch of these mailboxes into that space and actually offer this as a sort of simple way to take advantage of a small footprint of real estate.
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, I think you have to decide what type of human you are. If you are the type of person who has the capability to build up a really big business and that's what you want—to be a CEO of a startup or to be a CEO of an even bigger company—then I think the ROI on that is potentially more interesting long-term.
You're not going to get the same type of multiples with these tiny businesses. But here's the thing: most people are not like the three of us, and I don't even know if we'd all be in the same category. We're all different in the way we've built things. Most people should not be out there trying to build the next Facebook, and I think it's kind of messed up that a lot of people try to tell others that's what they should do.
Most people want Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? They want their family taken care of, they want food on the table, and they want to be able to do the things they enjoy on the weekends. That's it.
So, I actually like the idea of a portfolio of small bets. I think of buying businesses a lot like buying stocks. How can I create a little portfolio of them with somebody running or operating them? That way, my risk is diversified.
You're right, it takes more time, but if what you're really going for is to make, you know, $200,000, $300,000, $500,000, or even $1,000,000 a year—and that is your goal, not to change the world—there are so many better ways to do it than starting a startup, in my opinion.
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, I'm 100% with you on that. I think the **build versus buy** debate is so slanted towards **build** because building sounds sexy. Building sounds virtuous; it's what the media talks about.
It's really unfortunate because I know a lot of people who would have been really happy with **$250,000** a year in profits and low maintenance, low headache. Unfortunately, they get sucked into either one of two paths.
It's like, "I guess I'll do the startup thing because I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to be kind of my own boss." So then I have to do this from scratch, find product-market fit... like, damn, that's hard.
The other path is, "Ah, that sounds really hard. I'm just going to stick at this job and, you know, I'll be an employee for the next 25 years and never really get that freedom because I'm sort of on their schedule. I'm basically renting my time out to this company."
So the **buy** path versus **build** or **join**... I think buy gets criminally underrated right now, but I think it's changing. We have Andrew Wilkinson on the podcast a lot, and one of the reasons he's so popular is that when he says what he does, there's a hell of a lot of people out there who are like, "Shit, I want to do that! That sounds fun. That sounds like an easier path than the one I'm on right now."
So I think it's quite appealing.
Yeah, Sam, do you want to jump to one of these other topics that sounds interesting to you? We have a bunch that I know you like: tiny homes, buying distressed assets for $0, laundromats... which one do you want to do?
Oh no, we gotta tell you, Sam, the audio's gone again.
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Codie Sanchez | okay | |
Shaan Puri | Alright, so he has peaced out. The technical difficulties have overcome him, and he cannot continue on. He is out of the game.
Okay, I'll do one. I want to talk about just buying distressed assets for $0. Is this something you've done, or why did you bring this up on the list?
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, so this one is one I've done, and actually, there's an example of it. I'll give you the actual example.
I have a friend, Britney, who owns a couple of gyms. Not a bunch, she owns two. They're the kind of gyms that a lot of women go to, where they have set classes and everyone works together. It's kind of like women's CrossFit, but not with big weights. Anyway, she owns a couple of those.
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Shaan Puri | like shapes without the franchise basically | |
Codie Sanchez | Exactly. So, she was telling me that a bunch of her friends, their businesses—Pilates studios, barre, whatever—were going out of business during the pandemic.
What was fascinating to me is she said, "I'm buying some equipment. You know, I feel bad for them. I'm helping them out." I was like, "No, no, no, no, no. The way we gotta do this is think about those businesses. They're going under and they're worth now $0 to the market, but they have value."
You know, they're not getting anything out of the client roster that they have, all the goodwill that they've built up. So, what we decided to do was reach out to some of these gym owners and basically say, "Hey, you know, I'm really sorry. I know you're going through this terrible time. What if we could help annuitize you a little bit where you could get some revenue off of the business that you're about to close for $0? Instead, we can do a revenue share."
So, I own a business right now. We'll transition over your clients from your business to mine very carefully, very thoughtfully, but give them a new home. For every client that we bring over from you, I'll pay you out on it for a year, or I'll pay you out for 6 months at X amount and 24 months at Y amount—however we want to structure it.
This way, you actually make money while you're closing, your clients have a new home, and we have new clients that we can serve. We're friends, and you like me anyway.
What’s fascinating to me is nobody's doing this that I know of. If I owned any business, I would be out there right now for every business closing on Yelp. Sixty percent of the businesses on Yelp that close temporarily close permanently. So, I would be out there right now going after every one of their client lists, even if they were unrelated, and doing discounts and coupon codes, giving a revenue share to the owner who probably could use it, and taking their client base. That’s how I would buy distressed assets. I wouldn't spend a dime.
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Shaan Puri | I love that! I think that's great. Basically, you're picking up the assets and none of the liabilities.
So, you're not buying the business and then having the rent and having to bring that business back up. You're basically saying, "What is remaining as an asset to this business?" It's the customer rolodex. I think that's a great one that costs $0 out of pocket from day one. It's just profit share, you know, if a customer does come over to you.
So, I think that's a great one. Let's talk about modular homes or tiny homes. I think you have a couple of ideas on this. So, you have one, correct?
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Codie Sanchez | I do. Yeah, we bought a modular home, which I didn't even know. Do you know there's a difference between manufactured and a modular home? There's also weird terminology.
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Shaan Puri | No, like I actually... this is what I was gonna ask you. I thought a manufactured home is a modular home. No, there are...
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Codie Sanchez | Two different things. Yeah, I guess so.
A manufactured home basically means it's what we think about stereotypically, right? It's a trailer home. The only difference is that there's no foundation set, so you could pick that bad boy up and move it. That's manufactured.
What modular means is that it's built in pieces, which is modular. However, it has a foundation. So, at the end of the day, there's really no difference between what is called a stick-built home—a house that probably you're living in and that I live in right now—and this modular home.
But the crazy part is, well, one, we've all seen these cool modular homes popping up all over the place. I was surprised; I'm like, they don't really make sense. Not at scale. They're not that much cheaper, and they're not that much faster when you just drop one on your property.
I did a bunch of research and asked a bunch of people. They're kind of sexy, but they're not that much cheaper. When they are cheaper is when you do them at scale. I was surprised that there weren't any developments that did this. So, I started scouring the country and found a few—one in Park City—and the numbers were amazing.
I bought it, so I know they're real. We bought our house for $900,000 in Park City on an acre, 3,000 square feet. The average price, or median, is like $2,500,000 in Park City. So, the cost that they were able to save was so amazing, and they didn't pass it on to the user fully. I think they weren't sure if we all were going to actually buy into this.
But the houses are super sick, and I think that's a model. If I were a developer, I'd be using those all day long. I'd probably buy a modular housing company and then use them. Don't you think?
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Shaan Puri | Right, yeah. And so when you look at that home today, can you tell if this is anything but a normal home? Is it aesthetically different? Once, if you didn't know coming in what it was, no.
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Codie Sanchez | So, I'll drop you the link right now. I'm not going to say where it is, just in case anybody wants to come yell at me about something stupid I say online. But I'll drop you the link, and you can see the difference.
It's super sweet looking. It's kind of the open concept with big windows, whatever the case may be. You can't tell the difference. The only difference really is the turnaround time.
We bought this in December of last year or January, February—I don't know—and it'll be done by July. So, it hadn't been built at all.
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Shaan Puri | are you gonna add to it like are you gonna have more modules to it | |
Codie Sanchez | So, I'm going to add a back office module. What we did is we got about 5 or 6 of our friends to buy in the same community, and they're cool looking.
I think I'm going to do some event or something and utilize 4 or 5 of them. Then, you could have it as a tax write-off because it'll essentially be like a little business.
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Shaan Puri | Okay, this house is sick! The company that's doing the development here is not the actual manufacturer.
So, there are three layers: first, there's the manufacturing level; then there's probably some delivery layer; and finally, there's the developer who's doing the development and marketing. Beyond that, there's the individual home buyer.
Have you looked at the manufacturers of this?
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, so that's where this one's interesting. The builder and the manufacturer are actually in this deal together. They do own the modular company, at least a portion of it.
The builder is the one that's built this in a couple of other places. They also have another location that I think is cool and could work at scale, which is modular tiny hotel rooms, essentially. I believe that's in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
The economics are just so fascinating because our modular home will be built in less than six months. It's about a third of the cost. If you break it out by square footage, it's about a third of the cost.
The part that's interesting is in these locations where the weather's terrible, and you can't break ground very often, they build it all in a warehouse. So it's fine. They lay the foundations all in one go, and then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, they throw all the houses up, as opposed to everybody else. In Park City, they have to wait like, you know, two years or something like that.
So we'll see, but so far, so good. | |
Shaan Puri | Okay, this is pretty sick! I like this one. I'm going to jump to more because I want to see what these other ones are all about.
So, talk to me a little bit about... let's do a couple of the controversial thoughts. I'm going to rip through them pretty quickly.
And so, let's do the first one: **Number 1: Angel investing is largely dumb.**
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, is that painful? Because we both are angel investors too, and you have a rolling fund, no?
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Shaan Puri | I actually say this often, and people are like, "You have a rolling fund?" And I'm like, "Yeah." Of all my investment types that I do, this is, I would say, the worst one. But I think it's still good and fun, and I do it anyways. I have like 2 or 3 better ones that I do besides this.
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, so I think, you know, one of my good friends' names is Justin Donald, and we're both pretty obsessed with deal structuring.
One of the biggest problems I have with angel investing is that it's too fun; it's like gambling, right? You get excited about the founders, and guess what? Founders are charismatic. That's how they raise $1,000,000. You end up getting sold, and it's not their fault. Then there's fraud.
I wrote this whole piece about this one guy that we lost $2,000,000 to because he was just super egotistical. He had big images of himself on the wall and all this stuff. Later, I added a question to my due diligence questionnaire: "How many images of yourself do you have in your office?"
But the thing with angel investing is, you know this, you need like 20, 30, or 40 deals for every 1 to 4 that are going to go through. I think we do a disservice by telling people to invest in angel investing early on. Once you've made a few million dollars—and I mean that literally—then I think you can go into angel investing.
If you're on a path where you're making really good money and you've made at least half a million to a million dollars, then I think you can start angel investing. But until then, let other people lose money and learn from it.
You said it: "Take a DocuSign image of every deal you want to do, write down how you do it, timestamp it so people can see, and then decide later on how good you are at it without burning through a few tens of thousands of dollars."
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I have a bunch more thoughts there, but I largely agree with you.
I would say, like, here's my red flag: in order to justify angel investing, you have to give a blend of reasons. It's like, "Well, it's really fun. I like learning about the future and the market." These are all true things, by the way. So, it is fun, and you do learn a ton.
It's like an education. You can make great money if it pans out. As you assemble your basket, you should be netting a 20%+ IRR. It just takes a long time. It's illiquid, and it's not too much work because you're largely investing in your network that you've already built for 10 years. That's kind of the thing.
So, there's this blended reason, and anytime you have a blended reason, it just really means that there's not one really great reason to do something. Those are always, like, suboptimal choices, I find, for myself at least. Whenever I have to come up with a blend, I think, "Oh, interesting. So, that's a pretty big blend." I'm like, "Oh yeah, we should just not do it. Never mind, take it all back."
Because I'm giving you this huge list instead of just saying, "We should do this because of X." Right? Like, "We should invest in this business because it's growing like a weed, and if it wins, it's going to be this big." I can get behind that.
Some angel investors do fall into that. But the act of angel investing, as a job or a hobby, is more like when you describe playing basketball with your friends. Like, "Oh, it's great! I get to hang out with my friends, I get a good run-in, I get exercise, you know, I get outdoors."
It's like you're giving this blend of reasons for doing the really fun thing you just want to do, and you're justifying it. But the reality is, you just want to do it, and your brain comes up with reasons afterwards.
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Codie Sanchez | I think that's exactly right. The only caveat I have to that is if you can go for later stage deals, which now you can do with a lot of the late-stage AngelList syndicates.
Or, if you can structure debt—if you can figure out a way to start earning interest on day one with a startup that actually has, you know, a little bit later stage and some revenues.
You could also get into a debt deal that's based on some of its factoring of the invoices it has. There are, you know, people who always think of equity with startups, but lots of startups prefer debt.
So, do debt with an equity warrant kicker on it, and you can actually make money from day one and then have some equity upside. I think that is interesting.
But, you know, just throw the Y Combinator term sheet out the window because it's not going to be on that. | |
Shaan Puri | Right, and all that being said, I'm still going to angel invest because it is fun. It's, you know, a hobby that makes money.
So, okay, let's do another one: public market investing. Also kind of dumb. Talk to me there.
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Codie Sanchez | Well, this is a topic I like to discuss a lot with big investors. If you look at the Forbes 100 list, there is not one person on there who made their money from just investing in the stock market.
Then this is where people mention Cody, Warren Buffett, and Carl Icahn. I remember I was at Goldman in 2009 when Buffett made the deal to invest a significant amount of money in Goldman to stabilize it.
Yeah, I was there then, and it was not a public market deal. Buffett didn't go out to the street and buy a bunch of stock. He had a ton of warrants and options on top of it. It was a total backroom deal, and that's the only reason he did it. He basically had this huge asymmetric risk, where he had a lot more upside than downside.
That's the same thing with Icahn, who tries to affect the outcome. My point, especially these days with the GameStop situation and all the madness in stock investing, is that if you don't have an unfair advantage, if you can't write down why specifically you're going to win instead of somebody else, you should be really careful speculating on stocks. The big players don't really do it.
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, I have a cousin who runs a hedge fund. When he told me about all the different things they have at their disposal, I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm coming into a gunfight with like a fingernail." Wow, that's kind of how lopsided it is.
So, that being said, I think it's important to ask: do you have skin in the game? Do you own any public equities? Despite this, do you just go with something like Vanguard? Do you just say, "Oh, here are 10 companies I believe in, I'm going to do that," or what do you do?
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, I don't hold any individual stocks for speculation purposes. I invest in indices, and I'm not saying this is right or that I'm some guru. I'm just saying I don't think I'm smart enough to beat the market.
So, I don't play games where I don't like the rules. I'd rather write my own rules if at all possible. I go with equity indices, Vanguard, you know, whatever the case may be. I like Vanguard the best. Then I go with mutual funds on alternatives like private equity and REITs, where you can actually have an unfair advantage.
But I don't speculate on any individual stock. Now, I mean, would I own Apple, Amazon, Facebook, or whatever? Would I make a play on Twitter if I thought that might be fun? Yeah, maybe. But I think there are so many easier ways to make money with private market investing and buying businesses, as opposed to having to deal with the irrationality of the crowds.
Right? I mean, do fundamentals really matter in today's world, or is it whoever has the best investor relations and doesn't have some crazy thing the CEO said or done?
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Shaan Puri | right yeah exactly have you ever heard this term a keynesian beauty contest | |
Codie Sanchez | no what is that | |
Shaan Puri | So, named after I think the economist Keynes, the idea is that this is how the stock market works.
A Keynesian beauty contest is where you don't just assess the contestant that's on the stage, as you would in a normal beauty contest. In this case, the way the stock market works is that it's not you assessing the true beauty of the thing. Instead, it's you guessing what other people will value it at, who are also guessing what other people will value it at.
So, it sort of creates this extreme situation where you get these really warped things happening. Everybody is not betting on the thing itself; they're betting on what the other people will do regarding the thing. Everyone knows that everybody is betting on what the other people will value the thing at.
As a result, you get these really crazy, out-of-whack situations that aren't, you know, value investing at its core.
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Codie Sanchez | no I totally agree | |
Shaan Puri | Let's do a couple more.
**Buying real estate at auction** is a way to buy real estate at a discount. Talk to me about this one; I've never done this.
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, this one's fascinating. So, for instance, let's use Texas. Well, Sam's in Texas, right? But I like Texas because they do this thing where they actually sell real estate at auction on the courthouse steps of each municipality or city, prior to it going on Zillow, Redfin, or whatever the case may be. Like, we've all seen those.
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Shaan Puri | Are these foreclosed properties that you get there, or what type of properties are they?
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Codie Sanchez | You getting? Yes. So, foreclosed is really when it's listed on Zillow and Redfin. That's sort of like this post-auction step. That's when most of us see foreclosed properties, right?
So you're like, "Oh no, I know how to buy foreclosures. I can go on Redfin. If it says foreclosed, I can buy it." Well, prior to that, you have auctions, which are actually the bank auctions of bankrupt properties or foreclosed properties.
But you get it before the street does. And then you can even front-run that one step further, which is there's a list of properties that are going to go into bankruptcy or foreclosure. The list in Texas, you can look it up right now, is called Roddy's List (R-O-D-D-Y's).
On Roddy's List, you buy this list. It's cheap, like a couple hundred bucks, and you can get the list of all the properties that are about to go foreclosed. Then you can door knock. You can go knock on the door because, even though it sounds predatory, it's actually not.
If you go knock on the door and tell this person, "Hey, I'll give you $200,000 for the house that you are in foreclosure on because you owe $50,000," that actually gets them out of bank foreclosure and gives them the extra money that the bank was going to write off for them.
So this is buying on the auction steps. I did it with a friend of mine, Aaron Amuchisteghi, who's a stud at it. And it's wild. A million dollars of transactions in cashier's checks happen the same day on the courthouse steps.
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Shaan Puri | Why can't somebody bring that online? Why has nobody built basically the tech platform that says, "Great, we go to all the court steps and then we sort of flash list these things"?
You can sit at your laptop. I can... you know, Sean likes this idea. He loves getting an edge, but he's kind of lazy and so he doesn't want to go do all this stuff.
Why doesn't somebody bring that online?
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Codie Sanchez | that'd be | |
Shaan Puri | like roddy's list I guess is an example of that bringing that part online what about after that | |
Codie Sanchez | well I think you could there's a couple of things that you need to do in real life like you have to validate that the house exists right and the couple keys to the actual auction game are that there's some part that is just you gotta walk the walk so you could go and buy a house at foreclosure and look at it on Google maps but Google maps isn't updated same day so that house actually might have burned down last week or a month ago and I know somebody that that's happened to or the house if you look at it on Google maps you may not be able to tell that the inside of the house or the back end of the house is totally blown out so you gotta kinda go walk the properties a little bit that's one part of it right and then the other part is it's about debt and who owns the debt and like one thing I've realized about wealth over time is debt is just about everything you should always look for even before you do a start up investment is there any debt on the company am I in a first lien does that you know do I have first access to money if this company gets it in some way and it's the same with the house so a lot of these times they'll have a lien on the property that's like this is weird this is actually would be an interesting business for you guys to look at like one of the biggest predators on low income homeowners is you know those faucets like the little water purification faucets that you have in your house yep so oftentimes those are put in houses by people that come door to door and try to sell them to people and and they use it by doing a lien or applying debt to that person's mortgage and so you could literally have a lien before you for like $1500 that hasn't been paid so it's now worth like $25,000 because the interest is 10 or 12% and you don't even realize it so you do have to yeah so you do have to go actually figure out who owns the debt on the house and you do that again through a list like roddy's list that will tell you who owns the title to the house but none of these are big problems if somebody can list houses on zillow like zillow now dies site unseen you could just have apis in from roddy's list from the local county location you could probably have updated Google maps locations and all three of those things triangulate to go online I would imagine | |
Shaan Puri | I like it, and Ronnie's list is only Texas.
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Codie Sanchez | But there's tons of them. Usually, you have to go to the county registrar, and they'll list how often they do auctions.
So, in Texas, it's every Tuesday. In California, it depends by city and county.
One of the interesting things is that the biggest buyers of homes in California, for instance, in this downturn, in my opinion, is going to be the government. They've essentially made it where, if this is not your primary residence, you cannot buy these foreclosed homes at auction.
This is a crazy change, but in 2008, that's what happened. All the private equity firms went to all of these little municipalities and scooped up all these houses, getting them at pennies on the dollar.
The only thing that is true about this is you need cash. You gotta pay cash. So, you're coming with $100,000 in cashier's checks to buy this house at auction, right? Yeah, wild. And no paddles.
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Shaan Puri | I gotta just attend one of these to to see how it feels | |
Codie Sanchez | yeah yeah | |
Shaan Puri | Okay, we'll start and end on these last two. You wrote, "How to collect cool people." I don't know what "collect" means in this case, but is that a typo or did you really mean "how to collect cool people"?
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Codie Sanchez | I did mean that. Well, actually, I wish Sam was here because he would laugh at this one.
So, one of the things that I think is important for investors, VCs, or anybody, I guess, really, who wants to be in the startup game is: how do you make a connection with a human like you?
We get to know each other on Twitter; I kind of retweet you a few times. But before the social media game was there, how I actually met Sam originally was that I liked one of his articles that he wrote in *The Hustle* years ago. I did some research on Sam and thought, "You know, I just think he's going to do some stuff." I don't know what *The Hustle* was at the time; it was small. But I thought I wanted to know him, and I wanted him in my Rolodex in some way so I could bother him about things.
So, I found out what his favorite candy was, which is Butterfingers. I don't know if it still is now. I shipped him this ludicrous-sized box of Butterfingers—just like a ton of Butterfingers.
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Codie Sanchez | Where, like, he didn't have a lot of choices except to call me back and say, "You know what? Thanks." And you know Sam really well; I mean, he's not always like, "Thanks."
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Shaan Puri | and what the fuck | |
Codie Sanchez | Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so anyway, I did that with another good friend of both of ours, Noah Kagan. Except it was something about tacos at the time because that's his little shtick. I sent him a shirt.
So the whole idea here, I guess, was kind of like people these days will say—I'm sure they say it to you—"Well, Sean, you have this huge network. Of course, you could raise a fund this way." Or, you know, "Sam, of course, you could do this. You have this giant Rolodex of emails."
You know, I didn't have any of that at the time. I was in finance; we couldn't even have social media. I think those are all excuses. Instead, you should just get kind of obsessed with the people that you think are interesting. Find ways to connect with them. You can even do it in an old-school manner, which might work more today than ever because DMs and social media are inundated. | |
Shaan Puri | And what's your next move? So if the Butterfingers and the tacos or the pickup line, that's great because this happens to me. I always feel like, "Well, you did break through the door." I see you and I hear you, and I kind of check you out and I'm like, "Okay, cool."
But honestly, most of the time when that happens, I don't become buddies with them. I think that's what they want. It's like, "I sent you that shirt. I sent you that thing because you said you liked this and that." So I sent it to you. I'm like, "Yes, I did appreciate it," but I didn't necessarily go start a bromance with you after that.
So what do you do? Let's say with your follow-through, what did you do in those cases to turn that little, you know, funny sort of, "Hey, love what you do. I'm a fan. Here's a bunch of Butterfingers." What did you do to turn that into more of a peer relationship after that? Or what would you do?
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Codie Sanchez | Yeah, well, I think a couple of things.
1. You gotta be doing cool stuff to hang around cool people. Rule number one, right?
So, like the...
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Shaan Puri | prerequisite yeah exactly | |
Codie Sanchez | Yeah, so like, you know, I don't care if I was backing up a dumpster truck. Actually, that would be cool! I would probably be doing cool things if I did that for Sean.
But, you know, you have to actually be out there creating the thing to be around creators. So I think that's rule number one: have the lowest expectations humanly possible.
Right? Like, I don't want anything from Sean. I didn't want anything from Noah. I just wanted them in my circle and then to ping them sporadically with random stuff.
So, I think I got Noah one of his investments that he did. I pinged him on it. He actually had a question about something else he put on Twitter or something, and I sort of responded and said, "Oh, I knew that person."
So, it was trying to serve them a bunch of different times. This is very similar to what I do with founders when I want to invest in them. They'll eventually be like, "Cody just kind of solves problems for me," or "She does interesting things and makes my life easier in some way."
And doing it without being too... you don't want to be a creep, you know? I think when I first engaged with Noah—and I can say this now because we're buds—he was like, "Is she hitting on me? What's happening here? Does she like me?" And I was like, "No dude, I'm married. I'm sorry."
So, you know, but also just having no shame. I don't have an ego; I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody, right? And I think that's important.
What do you think? What would work for you? Would that work for you?
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, so the thing you said that works for me is, first and foremost, the ultimate networking hack is to **be interesting**.
Okay, that sounds easy. This sounds like, "Okay, I can't do anything with that." Well, no, you actually can. What is interesting to other people is someone who either knows stuff in an area that others want to know about. So, if you're an expert in a certain area, like cannabis or DeFi, just be knee-deep in it. You don't have to be a power player; just the knowledge is actually quite useful.
Alternatively, you can be doing interesting things. If I see you out there actually making things happen in your field, it doesn't have to be a big deal. You don't have to be doing SpaceX-level projects, but you have to be doing something.
What doesn't work is the opposite. If you reach out and ask me for something—like my most valuable thing, which is time—without offering me any reason why I should give you that time, maybe I will anyway because I'm just in the mood. But you didn't help yourself by making it easy for me.
Lastly, you're basically saying, "Hey, I'm kind of doing nothing, and I think if you talk to me, then I'll start to do something or I'll know what to do." Yeah, and that's not fun.
So, what do I like? I like people who are doing interesting things, and then they reach out, or I reach out. Either way, it doesn't matter. In doing so, they are, like you said, a non-needy person. They're happy to give, they're happy to chat, and they have low expectations.
One of the weirdest things is when people start with, "Hey, big fan of what you do. I know you get a ton of messages, but just wanted to put this on your radar." Cool, great first message. Then the second message comes in like 19 hours later, and I guess you just don't even care. You know, what's the point?
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Shaan Puri | Of this, anyways, you know, I really thought you were a good guy, but now I know the truth. It's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on?" You sort of pulled a 180, and now you're really needy and desperate for some kind of response. Now you expect things of me that I never ever offered to you.
So, I would say, like, just do the opposite of those bad things. Be interesting. Don't expect anything in return; just give and give little bits. Don't even give too much because giving too much actually creates an obligation as well.
So, just keep it really simple. Share interesting things with the person. Share life updates if you're doing cool stuff. Be useful. If they're trying a project, give them some feedback. Help them out. Reach out, share, you know, spread the word, tell a friend, whatever. Let them know that you're kind of, you know, in their corner.
That's all it takes really to break through with most people. From there, you know, it's either going to work or it's not, and you know, that's fine. Not everybody's meant to be friends with everybody, and that's okay. | |
Codie Sanchez | Yeah, and don't ask to be mentored by anybody. That's my biggest pet peeve. I'm like, "I can barely mentor myself. You don't want me mentoring you. What are you talking about?"
Not to mention, talk about an obligation. It's like, "Wait, have you looked up the definition?" That means I am supposed to lead you on your path of purpose. You don't even know each other, man.
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Shaan Puri | right | |
Codie Sanchez | so yeah I totally agree | |
Shaan Puri | yeah and somebody said this and I thought it was totally spot on they said you know the easiest way if you really do want a mentor first first things first acknowledge that seeking a mentor is a advanced form of procrastination you think that you need a mentor before you do the thing and in reality your mentor and all other people who succeed don't use mentors as a prerequisite yeah they find people along the way that help but that's because they're just in furious motion and people turn and look who's splashing in this pool and sometimes they go and they lend a hand and you know when you need it but they didn't sit around and say well if I get that mentor then I'm gonna do the things so so that's the first thing it's a it's an advanced form of procrastination and secondly the way you actually do form a mentorship bond is you ask somebody for a specific situational piece of advice so not just what should I do but like hey I'm debating between these two options how would you think about this or here's how I'm thinking about it would you poke holes in that and then then you follow-up which is where 95% of people fall off the cliff they get advice and then they don't follow-up with hey I listened to what you did or I did a variation of what you did and here's what happened people actually love hearing that update it's they're they are gathering data points of like what works what doesn't and it just feels good that like you close the loop you get some closure on that that conversation and then you just say and now here's the next thing like that's that's going on and you know some people will drop off because they don't wanna deal with you and some people will give again and then you do that the 3rd time you say hey here's what happened and now this unexpected thing is going on and here's how I'm dealing with that and by the third one you guys will know either this works we have good rapport we see the world in similar ways they complement each other they kinda like my spunk and I like their experience and like it meshes and we should do this or you'll know by then that you know this is not the right fit and so how do that's how you organically ease into having a mentor rather than trying to put a label with a stranger and asking them to commit to something that they you know don't really necessarily wanna do with you | |
Codie Sanchez | Yeah, you nailed it. I also think, and this is probably not very PC, but I think it all becomes easier once you've achieved a little bit of financial freedom.
I believe the less you're focused on making money every day and being in that sort of employee lane, the more interesting things you can do with your money. That opens up a ton of opportunities.
So, I'm pretty big on the idea that it's hard to be ideologically free, time-free, or really have any freedom if you don't have financial freedom. That all means something different to us. You and I might think that means a specific dollar amount, whereas some people might say, "No, it's just enough to cover the money I need to pay today."
But that's one thing I wish more people could think about: How do you really get financial freedom so that you can do all the stuff you want to do? And then, how do you achieve critical thinking freedom, where you can actually learn to ask the right questions?
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Shaan Puri | Here's the bit of insight I've had, the realization I've had recently. I worked for like a decade thinking, "Financial freedom is what I want." Even more so, I was like, "Okay, I want to buy a house so that I can get my mom a place." She'll have a better life if we could do that, and blah blah blah. So I thought financial freedom was the best kind of goal.
Now that I've kind of achieved a lot of those goals, I realized my goals just got a bit bigger. It's not like I... and it's true, I definitely do carry myself a little bit differently and choose projects and people differently because I'm not in a position where I need you for the money.
I don't need to do this for the money; I could do many things, and money should probably come along with all of them. I don't need near-term money necessarily. So there have definitely been some benefits.
Here's the realization: I used to think about financial freedom as, "If I get X dollars, then for me and my lifestyle, that's financial freedom." For another person, they might have a different dollar amount, which I think is kind of what you were saying. I thought that as recently as a month ago.
Then I met a bunch of people who have a way smaller dollar amount, but what they have is actually way fewer demands and desires about what they want out of their life. You know, in a good way. They're happy as is, so they don't feel like, "Well, I need X, then I'm going to be happier."
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Codie Sanchez | like wow | |
Shaan Puri | I'm super happy right now. And like, great, if I have more money, I'll have other things, but I'm not going to have more happiness.
What I realized was that **financial freedom** is actually just an internal question. It is not about a dollar amount. Financial freedom is when you stop deciding what to do based on money. That's when you have achieved financial freedom.
For some people, it takes getting a large amount of money so that they can stop. For others, it's wanting less stuff, and then they can stop because they have fewer demands for money; their total number is lower.
For other people, it's more like a sort of Buddhist or monk-like realization that it's actually an internal attachment they have to let go of, and then they are now free. The freedom is freedom from your own desire to have more money, and therefore you choose things based on money rather than the kind of mathematical definition.
There is also a sort of technical definition, which is that you have enough money where, even if you earn $0 income, your investments will pay for your lifestyle, and you won't be dipping into savings. Your savings are increasing at a rate faster than your life burn.
There is that technical definition, but I realize I know many people who pass that technical definition and still aren't financially free. It's because internally they have not actually freed themselves from what they need, from this idea of, "Well, I gotta put money first" as the choice of what to do.
Whether it's people who penny pinch or those who choose projects based on a financial return as the core criteria, that's the sort of... the idea.
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Codie Sanchez | Like that framework? No, I think it makes a lot of sense.
I think, you know, above a certain level, I get a little obsessed with everything that's going on economically in the world. With people who, again, like aren't maybe where you and I are, I almost think financial freedom might have something to do with your skill stack.
Even if you lost all of your money today, or if I lost all of my money today, as long as I have put as much in the relationship deposit as I think I have with other humans who are doing interesting things in the world, you and I are never going to be homeless—pending a catastrophic issue, right?
Because you can go to some of your friends and be like, "Hey, I'm actually pretty good at copywriting. Don't you see? Look at my Twitter account." Or, "Hey, I'm actually pretty good at building these businesses. I've sold a couple of them."
So once you get that skill stack, you're like, "I'm fairly confident, worst case scenario, I can go call up somebody and work for them."
I think there's some mixture of the dollar amount in your bank, what you need to pay, not having a ton of debt, and then are you competent enough as a human where somebody will always need your services?
I think that, paired with the ability to reason and think for yourself, is a pretty powerful combo.
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's great.
So, let's wrap up. Where can people subscribe to the newsletter? It's actually really damn good, and I don't say that lightly. I would probably say that anyway if somebody came on as a guest, like, "Oh, you have a great newsletter." But I'll just shout out that I actually believe it here. I'm not just being polite; you actually do a really great job.
You're like us; you don't shy away from the topic of money. You actually lean into it. You say, "Hey, a lot of people are interested in making money, and a lot of people don't know what's under the hood of these different business models or businesses." So, let's lift the hood together and look at how this engine works—what's good about it, what's bad about it, and how you might make it work.
We do that as a podcast, and you do that in your newsletter. We are very simpatico in that regard.
So, where can people find you, and where can they find the newsletter to subscribe?
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Codie Sanchez | Thanks for the shout!
Yeah, **contrarianthinking.co** is the newsletter, and then it's **Cody Sanchez** (@cody_sanchez) on Twitter. I think those are probably the two places I'm most active.
And Twitter, man, I've really found that fascinating in the last six months. I think we've finally figured out how it works. So apparently, I'm a little bit more of a boomer than a millennial in some ways.
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, there you go! Cool. We'll link it in the description, so if you didn't remember those, just scroll down and click the links in the description to find that of the podcast.
Okay, Cody, this has been amazing. Thank you so much! I would like to have you back on at some point. Maybe we'll break down a couple of the businesses that you've either acquired or been looking at recently, and I think that'll be a lot of fun. But thank you for coming!
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Codie Sanchez | I'm in thanks for all the questions it's always fun brainstorming with you |