Ariel Helwani Is Building His Own ESPN. He Already Has 1m+ Followers. He Tells Us How.

Ariel Helwani

I knew he wanted me out. He wanted me out from before I even got there. From the moment the news came out that I was signing, he was trying to get me to not even have day one at ESPN. So, just being 100% honest, I'm a petty guy. There was a part of me that almost wanted to stay in.

Shaan Puri

We're live now, despite him. So we...

Sam Parr

always hit record right next day jeez

Ariel Helwani

so hitting me with the the blindsided live I like it well it's it's sad

Shaan Puri

That's how the real pros do it, Ariel. I don't know how you guys do it on TV, but the real pros just go live abruptly in midterms.

Ariel Helwani

I love it I love it I'm always ready

Sam Parr

So, we got introduced through a friend, our buddy John, who's apparently your closest buddy. I don't know what you know about us, and we could tell you about it in a minute. But basically, we're pretty popular in the business world.

Shaan Puri

let's start with that yeah we're not a deal pretty big deal

Ariel Helwani

is what's happening anthony pettis is a fan I know that

Sam Parr

Yes, we're not nearly as big of a deal as you are in your world. But, you know, we're on the cusp of being pretty big. We've talked to a bunch of amazing people. We've talked to titans of industry, billionaires, and people who have tens of thousands of employees—people whose products you use, whatever. I have never been as starstruck or as nervous to talk to someone.

Shaan Puri

as they

Ariel Helwani

do now

Sam Parr

I swear to God, Ariel, I've been listening to you for maybe 10 years. I've never been this nervous.

Ariel Helwani

Okay, and so for the audience at home, the only reason why Sam is saying this right now is because I think he recorded this after the explanation of what happened last time. We were supposed to actually do this a month ago, and he stood me up. So, he's trying to butter me up because he still feels bad. He was in some villa in Hawaii while I'm on the East Coast, freezing my butt off here. He didn't wake up in time, and now he's trying to tell me that he is "starstruck" in front of me. Get out of here with this!

Sam Parr

no I I I this is cap I'd be

Ariel Helwani

as the kids say this is full cap right here alright there's no cap

Shaan Puri

cap cap cap sam doesn't know he doesn't know cap he doesn't know this sort of modern lingo

Sam Parr

Well, I've been dead honest. We've talked to a lot of wonderful, amazing people, but I've never been this nervous because you don't take a lot of shit. You call people out, you know? The whole thing with Brendan Schaub is amazing. The whole thug nose... I know about it all. CEO Changs.

Ariel Helwani

that's amazing that is incredible

Sam Parr

Well, like every one of your guests takes their interviews from the phone while driving. I'm shocked you're not doing that.

Ariel Helwani

I know, every time they go to me, you know, like, "It's alright, now let's join so and so. Thank you for joining us, blah blah blah." Then they go to the shot and they're in the car. I'm like, "For fuck's sake, you're in the car? Really? Why did you tell me that this was a good time if you're in the car?" I don't know, there's just something less intimate about the car. Maybe for other people it's more intimate, but I don't know. When you're at home, you're comfortable. You've got your little water bottle or coffee next to you. It just seems like you're going to get better stuff. But all that aside, thank you for having me. In fact, a very good friend of mine, not named John Beer, named Kevin Wang of Montreal—I'll give him a shout out—he currently lives in New York as well. I've known him for quite some time. When I think you sent out the initial tweet that I would be on, he, within seconds, sent me the screen grab and said, "This is my favorite podcast! I can't believe you're going to be on it. This is incredible! Tell me more!" So, a lot of people are apparently excited. I appreciate you guys having me. No hard feelings. It took me a couple of days to get over being stood up. You know, I had to rearrange my whole schedule and cancel on some people and things like that. But with great pleasure, I return to do this for real.

Sam Parr

Good, and we're going to do an intro ahead of this, so we don't need to talk too much about your credentials. But basically, for the people who aren't listening, Ariel, you've been in this game since 2...

Shaan Puri

for the people who aren't listening I don't think I don't think they care

Sam Parr

Sorry, see, I told you I'm nervous. For the people who don't follow you, you're basically... you've been in the game since '06. You worked for Vox, you've worked for ESPN, and you've worked for a ton of different amazing publications. But you started as a reporter at this. I would say you're just as much of a character of the MMA scene, UFC scene, as Dana and some of the fighters.

Ariel Helwani

well don't tell dana that

Sam Parr

Well, I... you're definitely, you know, you're as much a part of the story sometimes as a lot of the stuff going on, which is awesome. You've built this amazingly large and loyal audience. We're a business podcast, so we could talk a little bit about MMA, but what's interesting is that you've recently kind of gone semi-independent. You work with BT Sports, you work with Spotify, and you have a Substack. Although you don't work with them, you know what I mean—you have a Substack. What you're doing with journalism and being an entrepreneur is pretty amazing. You kind of have this independent business, which I think is interesting. If you are a young person wanting to get into business journalism or business media, what you are doing, along with some of the other guys like Bisping and Chael Sonnen, is the perfect example of what you can become. That's why we asked you to come on.

Ariel Helwani

well I appreciate that and I could tell you how I arrived to this. In my life if you'd like I kinda feel like I'm an entrepreneur at heart but I say that with the caveat that I'm a horrible businessperson when I think of things like finances stocks investments like it truly makes my head hurt my older brother mark is someone who's very good at this stuff my dad is very good at this stuff my brother works in the financial industry and all this I was always more of the sports fan the creative the dreamer that type of person however I consider myself an entrepreneur in the sense that I have always tried to do things solo on my own but on myself when I went to syracuse university as a youngster I was the only one of my friends who left montreal to go study in the united states in canada where I'm from in montreal no one leaves they all just go to either mcgill or concordia and so I felt like I was kind of you know building my own thing then when I got there I I create you know I I I went to the the traditional so syracuse university in case you don't know is the number one school for at least in my opinion to develop sports broadcasters and they've developed the likes of you know the likes of bob costas went there and marv albert and mike tirico I mean the list is just incredible the names of the people who you know went to study at syracuse over the years and they all go to this one station w a e r to hone their craft and develop a voice and all that stuff and I went there and I noticed that everyone kinda wanted to be the same person I never wanted to follow anyone and so I left that station after 1 semester and I went to like the rinky dink 3rd tier student station in the student center and I did my own combat sports show every saturday morning over there and so again I was kinda just doing things on my own and trying to build out my own thing fast forward a long time I get to spike tv in 2007 I hate it after a week I start my own website and that's how I get into mma journalism and I start interviewing fighters and I give myself 6 months to get noticed I don't get paid for any of this I was just kinda using this as an opportunity to show people what I can do fast forward to now and in february I'm starting to realize that my time at espn is probably coming to an end and I'm starting to think to myself okay what do I wanna do what would make me happy what's the future here and what I came to realize was I can almost create this menu this puzzle as I called it where I'm doing this here this here this here that here and I call myself independent helwani independent helwani and yes I'm working with other people but I feel very independent because I was able to go out and carve up my duties some of it's my own my own youtube channel the subtract things like that and some of it is I consider partnering with other people and it's it's been an incredible few months since I was able to leave I was terrified of leaving it initially because espn was my dream I actually had to talk to a therapist about that and we could get into that as well because I didn't feel I felt like a failure if I left after 3 years because this was my dream this was the mountaintop but I was very unhappy and I realized that I had to go back to that entrepreneurial spirit and start building out my own things and start doing what made me happy and be around people who make me happy and people who support you and don't wanna stab you in the back and all this stuff and so yeah I'm very very happy now now I'm working with vox my old friends at vox media with the ringer spotify with substack with bt sport I did a thing for showtime recently betmgm and it's great I've never been busier but I've never been happier as well

Shaan Puri

And talk about that move. So, you're at ESPN. The dream is realized because you're kind of like me. I don't know if you remember, there was a show back in the day about becoming a SportsCenter anchor. Did you ever watch this show?

Ariel Helwani

oh yeah yeah

Shaan Puri

It was like a reality show, and it was only on for like two seasons or something like that. But it was great. I think anybody who grew up kind of with SportsCenter on loop, you know, there was something really aspirational about ESPN. You get there and think, "So this can happen." It happens with all kinds of entrepreneurs. You'll sell your company, and then you'll feel kind of numb or bored, like, "Wait, was this it? This is the thing I was working for this whole time?" So was it that the dream really wasn't a dream, or was it that, oh, it came to an end and I gotta figure out where to go from here? So what was the ESPN side like? Did the mountaintop feel like you thought it would feel, or what was that like?

Ariel Helwani

Yeah, so that's a great question. I always wanted to work at ESPN; that was sort of the end goal. I remember being a young kid going on vacation to the United States with my family. We'd get to the hotel, and my brothers and I would watch SportsCenter on loop. I remember in the mornings they would have one episode that they would tape and just repeat it over and over again. I was so taken by the magic of sports television, the characters, and the highlights. I'll be honest, when I got there, right off the bat, I was disappointed. The first few months at ESPN were very hard for me because I had this vision in my mind of what it would be like, the resources, the commitment to excellent content, coverage, and attention to detail. Honestly, it just wasn't what I expected. Now, over time, we kind of found our groove, and I got to do a lot of fun things. I'll be honest, in the back of my mind, I was like, "I don't know how long I'm gonna last here," partly because of the fit, but also partly because of the relationship with the UFC and not being able to cover the sport the way I wanted to cover it. I tried to check off as many boxes as possible. Hosting a radio show? I wanted to do that—I checked that off. Doing an E:60 profile on my good friend Daniel Cormier? Checked that off. Doing NBA sidelines? Checked that off. OTL (Outside the Lines)? Checked it off. SportsCenter? Checked it off. So, I was trying to do as much as possible because I knew at some point...

Ariel Helwani

This was not going to be a 25-year lifer for me. I came to that conclusion pretty early on. I’m not one of those guys who stays at ESPN for all those years. You know, it was tough. I went from doing a show in a beautiful studio that I helped design in New York City to a very small studio with not the same resources. Then, I had to go to Bristol, Connecticut, twice a week, driving 4 hours back and forth on Mondays and Wednesdays.

Sam Parr

it's it's to bristol it's a 4 hour

Ariel Helwani

Back and forth, so 2 hours and 2 hours in the same day, twice a week. Oh man! You know, sometimes it's... you're ex... I'm doing a show that's 3 to 4 hours long. I'm mentally tired after this show, and I have to get back in my car and drive 2 hours. Often, in the winter, it's pitch black. This wasn't very fun, and yet here I am. You know, it's the dream job; it's ESPN. Then, on top of that, it's all the other drama that you have to deal with behind the scenes. So, yeah, I mean, I came to the conclusion around a year ago—well, not a year ago now, like last summer—okay, you know, what do you want to do? What would make you happy? Would leaving be the right move? Would that make you happy? And, you know, there was a part of... you know, I knew, honestly, I knew there were people that probably wanted me to leave. You know who I'm talking about—people in the UFC probably wanted me to leave. I don't...

Sam Parr

And if you're not listening, basically, you've had... and you just actually did a wonderful YouTube video yesterday where you explained the background. But basically, you've had an issue, or Dana White, the president of UFC, has had an issue with you for a variety of reasons. Whether he claims you're too negative, or he says you've leaked some information, there's always been some tension there.

Ariel Helwani

All of it's wrong. He couldn't be more wrong. But, you know, he has his business and his motives. It would be great if we could meet in the middle like we once did, but that's neither here nor there at this point. So yes, I knew he wanted me out. He wanted me out from before I even got there. From the moment the news came out that I was signing, he was trying to get me to not even have day one at ESPN. To be 100% honest, I'm a petty guy. There was a part of me that almost wanted to stay in spite of him. I didn't want them to win. I didn't want them to win because I knew that they would celebrate if I left. In fact, when I announced that I was leaving ESPN, I got a text message from an unknown number that’s not in my phone saying, "I told you we'd get you out of ESPN. Bye bye." Now, I don't know who sent me that text message. I have my theories, but I needed to talk to someone to figure out how to get over that. I didn't want to stay at a job in spite of someone, which is absolutely ludicrous. I wanted to do what makes me happy, to have fulfillment in my heart, you know, to wake up and be excited to be around people that make me happy and support me. I had to get over that in my brain, and thankfully, I did. It took some time, but I don't have any regrets.

Shaan Puri

Do you tell the therapist about Penny Helwani? About Helwani? Does the therapist support all these characters that you have?

Ariel Helwani

In your arsenal, sometimes she's like, "Okay, what is the end goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you bringing more stress?" But she really helped me realize what is important and what makes me happy. I learned not to stick around to, you know, stick it to people and things like that. As I said on my show on Wednesday, I don't know if I would have ended up at this point if I hadn't talked to a therapist. I was always someone who was afraid of talking to a therapist because I thought it made me weak. I thought it would be a sign of weakness that I needed help and all this stuff. Honestly, I'm so happy and thankful that I got to that point. It was a weird way to get there, but I'm happy that I was able to talk to someone who helped me figure things out.

Sam Parr

Therapy is like exercise. I'm like, look, even if you look skinny, you should still exercise. You know, even if you're in an okay place, you should still go and do stuff. Particularly if you're overweight, you should exercise. If you're in a bad mental spot, you should definitely go and do therapy. So, I don't think you exercise.

Ariel Helwani

My Peloton bike helped me a lot. I got one of those. I mean, a lot of things helped me clear my head, and I don't have any regrets. I don't even have one thing that I had to talk out. I didn't want to have ill feelings towards ESPN. I love sports! I was just watching my Knicks beat the Celtics in an incredible double overtime thriller last night on ESPN. I didn't want to be the guy who couldn't watch ESPN, who couldn't go on the app, or who felt some sort of way about this company that meant so much to me. I didn't want to live with that animosity, and I was afraid that would happen. I don't have any of it. I don't have any animosity towards them or the people there. To be honest, I don't have any animosity towards anyone there because they kept their word. They paid me till the very end. They stayed true to the contract. They even offered me a new contract, unlike what other people are trying to say about me being fired. I was never fired. They offered me a contract, then I turned it down. I met some legends: Mike Breen, Doris Burke. I met absolute legends of the TV business there. I will never forget my time, and I'm very thankful for it. But three years was enough; it was time to move on.

Sam Parr

Can I ask you... I want to ask you two questions. The second one is actually going to be about Dana White. I want to ask you about what attributes you think he has that have made UFC wonderful. That's what I've asked people about you. I asked John, Goh, and Ariel. They're amazing. What drives him? So, it's always fun to ask other people about the people they work with. But the first question is: with your current setup right now in your business, what do you think is going to be the biggest revenue driver? Is Substack going to drive this paid newsletter business? Is that going to drive a significant amount? Or do you think it's most going to come from BT Sport or from YouTube ads? What’s your business setup, and where's your head at in terms of where the opportunity is?

Ariel Helwani

Right now, my biggest revenue driver, if you want to put it in those terms, is Vox Media. They're paying me the most, and that was important to me because *The MMA Hour* was a show that I created and put a lot of time and effort into. I mean, I poured everything into that show from 2009 all the way to 2018. It was heartbreaking to see it end, even though I was going to my dream job. That show just meant so much to me, and I think it meant a lot to a lot of people. So, that's the biggest one.

Sam Parr

and that's a do do you regard that as a youtube channel or or is it

Ariel Helwani

YouTube and the podcast do very well. It's on Apple, it's on Spotify, it's on Google, and it's on Stitcher—all those places as well.

Sam Parr

and you own

Ariel Helwani

I do not own it. No, I don't own it. They pay me to do that show. So, that's what's interesting about my situation. Some of the stuff I own, and some of the stuff I don't own. But everyone's playing nicely together in this sandbox, and I'm very appreciative. It took some time to kind of figure out all the pieces. That was the most interesting part of this. Back in February or so, when I came to the conclusion that I was going to leave ESPN and try to do things here and there. Obviously, you have it... oh, I'd like to do this and that. Some people call it a "Chinese menu," you know? You kind of build your own thing. But then the actual dance of getting everyone to play nice and be on board with all these little different things that I'm doing was the most interesting part of the whole process. I really lucked out and found all these people who are okay with me having my own YouTube channel that's completely mine, and the Substack, but also doing something for The Ringer, Spotify, and also doing something for Vox. So, it's just been a really interesting exercise. Look, I like my friend Pat McAfee—here I am dropping names. He's like, "Oh, well, you're not totally independent; you don't own everything." I'm like, "Okay, fine. If you want to get into that whole semantics game, fine. I don't own everything." But there's an independent spirit to all of this where, at the end of the day, I feel like I'm partnering with other people as opposed to being a full-time employee with anyone. I'm not. I have an LLC now, and I'm able to pick and choose what I want to do. So, that's really important. But to answer your question, the biggest deal that I have at the moment is my deal with Vox Media.

Shaan Puri

Do you think long term that stays true? Or do you think because some things pay off better immediately, and then some things you say, "Okay, if I build, I don't know, the newsletter, if I build the podcast or the Ringer stuff, if I build that up, three years from now this picture might look a little different." Or do you... you said you don't really think too much about business. Do you not even care about that? Do you just do your thing and see what happens?

Ariel Helwani

are you trying to get me to reveal my 5 year plan my business plan right here are you

Shaan Puri

Do you want me to? That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm looking for 20, 30 Ariel. Where's 20, 30 Ariel doing?

Sam Parr

like the the what what who's the guy who started the ringer what's his name again

Ariel Helwani

bill bill simmons

Sam Parr

Yeah, like, you know, he was in a similar position as you. So the ringer probably netted around $150 to $200 million when he did that. I mean, is that going to happen to you?

Ariel Helwani

that would be nice I don't know you know right now obviously I'm I'm I'm very happy with the situation I'm really excited and it's kind of the thing that's flying under the radar at the moment which I'm totally okay with that what I'm doing on my own youtube channel is giving me as I like to say a lot of is a a yiddish word which means kind of like fulfillment and joy in my heart because every week for now every thursday I am posting an interview with someone outside of the mma world because I have been itching for a very long time and that was part of the reason why I went to espn to show people that I'm more than just an mma guy that I can interview other athletes authors musicians comedians anyone it doesn't matter if you're in the sports world if you're an actor if you're a holocaust survivor if you're interesting I wanna talk to you because the thing that I derive the most enjoyment from are the interviews I love talking to people I could do a hunt I mean I do a 4 hour show twice a week now and I I feel like I could do it every day it's just a lot of fun for me and so I've I started that around a month and a half or so ago and it's just my own little thing it's it's me and 2 producers an audio guy a video guy and we're posting these interviews and I don't honestly care at this moment if a 1000000 people watch these interviews or 3 people watch the interviews for for me now I'm doing them to you know fulfill you know this this little you know passion of mine to to talk to other people to scratch that itch but also to eventually show people the right kind of people that I could do this that I could be much more than just an mma guy and it's actually the exact same thought process that I had when I got into all of this back in 2007 in fact this past tuesday october 19th marked the 14 year anniversary of me launching my own site jerrypark.com it's still up I was at spike tv in september of 2007 I got a job working at spike tv and spike tv was the home of the ufc and I was working in tv production I thought okay this is the best place for me tv production ufc they're the home of the ufc it's perfect after a week there I walked into my boss's office and I quit and I said I I don't really think this is the right fit for me I'm not I real like they didn't do anything creative I'm a creative guy I like to think of ideas come up with things and they were just kind of the middleman the ufc was producing all the content so I walked into his office I said I'm really sorry thank you for the opportunity but I don't think this is the right fit and I'm the kind of guy who when he's 85 years old I I I I don't want to wake up and say I I could've done this I should've done this I should've zigged when I zagged all that stuff he was very upset he said you're gonna regret this for the rest of your life this is unprofessional no one's ever done this blah blah blah blah and they made me stick around for a month and a half in my cubicle until they found someone to replace me and that was the crossroads of my life in fact our mutual friend john was a part of this process where you know I would we would go for lunch during this process I'm not doing anything and I'm telling him I'm gonna start my own website and I'm gonna start interviewing fighters because I really wanna go into mma journalism I really wanna show people that I could be the howard cosell the the the max kellerman the whatever of mma and so I started to reach out to fighters via myspace and every morning I would post an interview with a fighter and I didn't care if 5 people looked at the interviews or five 100 people looked at the interviews or 500,000 I just wanted to use that to show people that I could do that 14 years later I'm doing the same thing on my youtube page and now I want to build this and grow it and and use it as an opportunity to show people but for now it's just like giving me so much joy to go back to those early days and just talk to people about things and then now I'm like last week I interviewed marty fish the former tennis player who's been you know very open with his battles with anxiety and friends of mine who have never listened to my work watched my work ever who don't care about ma are like wow dude you're a really good interviewer I'm like yeah I've been doing this for 14 years at this?

Ariel Helwani

But it's it's opening me up to a whole new audience and I'm very excited about that

Shaan Puri

We have a couple of go-to phrases or principles when it comes to business. One of them is **"bet on yourself."** I think some people listening to this might not be super into MMA, but one of the things they could pull out is your **"bet on yourself"** mentality, especially when it's not easy. Betting on yourself, sometimes as an entrepreneur, is kind of obvious. You don't really have a job; by default, you bet on yourself. You had quote-unquote good jobs at each of these stops, and then you said, "Look, this isn't it. I'm going to bet on myself, and I'm going to go independent. I'm going to do my thing." So you have a strong dose of **"bet on yourself."** You have another principle that Sam coined, which is **"niches get riches."** I know you're a basketball fan, but you didn't go into the more established field that had a career track where you could tell your mom, "Look, there are other people who have made it in this field. I could be the next whatever in basketball." Instead, you went for MMA, which was, at that time, a fringe sport. Back in 2006 or whatever, there was no blueprint or success stories doing what you were doing. I don't think there were any success stories at that time; you are kind of the success story of that niche. I want to hear how you decided to bet on that, even though you have other interests and sports that you're interested in as well. The last principle is this great phrase: **"You want to do the work that looks like work to others but feels like play to you."** For example, if I were going to interview someone for four hours a day, I would be exhausted. But I think you pick up steam and energy by hour three. You're just hitting your groove, and it gives you energy. I think that's another example of how you live one of these principles that we talk about.

Ariel Helwani

but tell me

Shaan Puri

about the niche thing oh this is

Ariel Helwani

that all this that spoke to my heart that spoke to my heart that's a great line niches get riches because I couldn't agree with you more when I got to syracuse for the first time in my life like when I went to syracuse I wanted to be the costas marv alberts basketball baseball football traditional guy hello welcome to abc sports I'm ariel helwani world series super bowl and for the first time in my life I realized wow there's a lot of people in this world who are my age who have the exact same dream as me who who are a little more polished who have nicer hair who don't have as big of a nose and maybe don't have such a foreign name their name is john smith and they just kinda fit that bob costas mold and I never I never like to follow you know the pack and so I remember telling my parents in september of 2001 there's this sport called mixed martial arts there's this organization called the ufc at this. It's not even 8 years old and I think it's going to be mainstream and I think in 10 years there's gonna be some executive in some office some older guy who's like what is this crazy cage fighting sport I know nothing about it but apparently it's very popular who's the guy who's the voice who's the howard kosel of mma and I wanna be that guy and amazingly literally 10 years later august of 2011 I was hired by fox and that was like my first big you know mainstream gig and so it kind of worked out in that regard but I I I say this to young people all the time when they reach out to me and they send me you know oh I wanna do this I wanna do that I wanna be you know stephen a smith and all this stuff in this day and age you don't want to be a generalist you you you you you you're a fan of the new york knicks you're a fan of the new york knickerbockers I'm not gonna go tune in to the radio espn radio now I'm not gonna go in my car tune in and say oh I hope you guys talk about the knicks celtics game last night I'm gonna go on my podcast app and I'm going to go to the new york knicks podcast as niche as it gets to hear an hour breakdown of last night's game if I'm a big pro wrestling fan I'm going to go to my pro wrestling podcast and listen to mma podcast listen to business podcast the days of sitting in your car and hoping that they talk about something or listening to people just talk about god knows what those days are over and so it is actually a lot better in my opinion to go into a niche to be the niche guy as opposed to being the generalist yeah there's a couple guys who will make it stephen a and those guys but for the most part in my world it's way better to be the niche guy and I try to explain that and and within the niche have your own niche as well and so like my thing interviews I tell the people like find your thing there was a young guy I always bring up mike bond he works for mma junkie and he's a lot younger than I am his niche that he used to get in the door were stats and factoids so he would have all these stats about all the fighters great these days maybe it's betting betting is super hot right now use that as your niche to get in the door so yes I I couldn't agree more with that mindset and and I would urge anyone in this day and a this day and age of a la carte you know everything is a la carte right podcasts streaming all that the more niche the better you'll have way more success rather than being just some guy like those days 50 years ago when you were a columnist for a newspaper those days are over

Sam Parr

How big is your audience? I mean, I know the YouTube videos get like 30,000 to 100,000 views per clip, per video. What would you say the number is for your audience? Also, what advice do you have? You could use us as an example. I mean, we're smaller than you. What are your tips for getting noticed and being great at building this empire?

Ariel Helwani

this is gonna sound

Sam Parr

don't tell me good content

Ariel Helwani

No, no, no, no, no. It's gonna sound whack, but I really don't know the size. I mean, I see the numbers on YouTube, but I never asked for the podcast numbers. I don't want to know. And it's actually one thing that really bothered me at ESPN. Like, three weeks into my time there, we sat down and started breaking down the numbers, the listening rate, and the completion rate, and all this stuff. I was like, "I don't want to know this." It's hard enough. By the way, in the, what is it now, 12 years of me doing this—hosting this type of weekly show and all this stuff—I've never had a person book the guests for me. I book every single guest. Every single name that you see on my show on Wednesday—Rose, Jan Błachowicz, and Fedor—I book those people myself. I do not have a booker. What do...

Sam Parr

you just dm them on twitter I mean how do you dm fedor

Ariel Helwani

Now, I have their numbers. I know what everyone likes. There are some people who respond quicker to DMs, some who respond quicker to WhatsApp, and others who respond quicker to iMessage. I never email anyone. I mean, emailing a fighter is like throwing a toothpick into the ocean—there's no chance you're getting a message back. But, you know, I'm kind of relentless and obsessive like that. I think I would drive someone crazy if I said, "Hey, I want to get Rose Namajunas on my show," and then I would probably ask them a million times, "Did she respond? Did she respond? Did she respond?" So, I'd rather just put that on myself. Now, it's probably the worst part of the job, and it makes me very stressed out, but it's just the way I like to do things. That brings enough stress to know about completion rates, downloads, and subscriptions.

Sam Parr

But you must have an idea. You have a million followers on Twitter. I think VT Sport has 1,200,000 subscribers on YouTube, ish. Your videos get ballpark 50,000 to 100,000 views per... maybe? I don't know what your podcast downloads are, but like...

Ariel Helwani

Do you know at all? No one has talked to me now. Okay, I'll tell you. At ESPN, when my show with DC was towards the end, we were getting, I think, on the podcast only... Now, this is one little sticking point that I have. They would sit down and they'd be like, "Okay, the podcast with DC is getting around 90,000 downloads an episode." I'm like, "Alright, that's pretty good. 90,000 an episode, once a week, 1 hour a week." But here's the problem: they were comparing us to other podcast-only shows. Let's say the Low Post podcast, the basketball podcast hosted by the great Zach Lowe. But that's an audio-only podcast. We have the YouTube show as well, so our audience is splintered. So if you want to know about our total audience, you've got to count those numbers as well. And in addition, you want to get into...

Sam Parr

the show never listened I listen to you every single time I've never listened to you on a podcast app

Shaan Puri

same to

Ariel Helwani

You know, that's the thing. It would always annoy me that we were just focused on the YouTube numbers. To me, I'm more of a visual guy, and I care more about that. The audio podcast is almost like gravy for me, if you're in your car or whatever. But I'm more inclined to push the video. So, I would guess if we're going to use those numbers, that's from a few months ago, and I don't feel like we've really missed a beat on MMA fighting since I returned there from the video. You know, we're talking like 200, 250 views, but then there's the breakout stuff, right? Each interview gets made into its own separate clip. So, I don't know, man. Why are you trying to stress me out here? I'm just trying to live my life and do...

Sam Parr

The interviews you gave an answer. So, you think a $200,000-ish an episode?

Shaan Puri

I'll tell you why I think something like that matters

Sam Parr

What are we at? 50,000 or I think we're at 60,000 an episode if you add the YouTube and the podcast. I think that's amazing.

Shaan Puri

Like, I think I've been studying a bunch of different people. You know, there's you in, let's say, MMA, and then there's, I don't know if you follow cryptocurrency, but this guy Pump, and he's like the Bitcoin guy. Then there's Tim Ferriss, and he's like, you know, the "4-Hour Work Week" guy. There's always people who build their brands, and they're what I call, you know, solopreneurs or solo media people. You can look at it; I did a comparison once of Rogan's show versus, you know, the Tonight Show. On every metric, it's like, you know, it's...

Sam Parr

not even close

Shaan Puri

You know, how many viewers do you get? How much money do you bring in? How many employees do you have? On every metric, Rogan just beats down the Tonight Show. But people still sort of think, from a prestige point of view, that one is a television show where you wear a fancy suit, have a monologue, and a fake audience clapping. The other one is like, you know, you just got done with a workout, you sit down in this little studio, and you do a podcast. What the heck's a podcast? So, people haven't really caught up on this model. I sort of broke down the businesses of each and said, "Oh, okay, interesting." What it looks like to me is you get this number that I call your true fans, which is basically the number of people who really trust you. Let's say that's like a quarter of a million people for you or something like that. Maybe it's 250,000 people that really trust you and will follow you. They don't really care if you're on ESPN, MMA Fighting, or you're with BT Sport. They just know Ariel Helwani and will follow you wherever you go. It's like a fan of LeBron James; they're not a Cleveland Cavaliers fan, they're a LeBron fan. Now they're all Lakers fans. So then I studied the model and said, "Okay, it looks like between 2% to 4% of your audience will buy anything you do." They'll pay for your paid newsletter, they'll buy your hoodies. You know, you tell them, "Hey, I'm Ariel, I've raised a venture capital fund, I'm investing in startups now," and they'll invest in your fund. They'll do everything. Now, there are all these new models. Before, it used to be you get famous, write a book, and spend a couple of years doing that to monetize your audience. Then people started doing courses and other different things like that. I've been studying all the different models. One of the guys I got friendly with was Matthew Berry at ESPN because he has a niche, which is fantasy football. He was doing this before fantasy was sexy. He was convincing Yahoo and others, "Hey, go into fantasy. I'm telling you, guys are nuts about this." He became the fantasy guy. He's kind of like you; he's got a cushy gig with ESPN, but he has a bit of independence. He's got his own text message list and his own fantasy football thing.

Ariel Helwani

Does he do that? I didn't know he had his own carve-outs. I actually asked ESPN in our negotiations, I was like, "Well, what if I do this? Like, if I just do the DC show and the Chill show, but then I do this other stuff on my own?" I don't know, it just... we...

Sam Parr

could we could

Ariel Helwani

it's not easy but I

Shaan Puri

I think he has a couple of carve outs that work for him

Ariel Helwani

for him

Shaan Puri

And he got it kind of grandfathered in. Basically, he's like, "Yeah, I get to keep this." I don't make too big of a fuss, but if you go look at his Twitter bio, what does he link to? It's like, I think he links to one of his properties as one of his things. So, I've been studying this model. I would say for you, I think you're in a great spot. If you just sort of think about the menu of ways that someone who has a trusted, loyal audience they've built over 10 years can monetize, there are all these creative ways beyond ads or sponsors on my show. I don't know if you care about that stuff, but...

Ariel Helwani

I think that's a bunch of the sponsors. It's interesting, like the Substack thing is super interesting because I would say of the three main things that I do—obviously, there's video, audio, and writing. There are different components to all of those, but those are the main ones. I feel very confident in my abilities as a video host and as an audio host. However, I don't feel as confident in my abilities as a writer. Now, people tell me I'm good; I just don't feel like I'm as good. I try to be very genuine when I write. I try to be myself, not someone else. I talked to a bunch of people about the writing component of my menu, and everyone wanted me to do stuff that I wasn't really down with. The guys at Substack, so I'm part of this Substack Pro model. I don't know if you guys know about this.

Sam Parr

yeah and we and we've talked to those guys hamish and all those guys a fair bit we like them

Ariel Helwani

Yeah, so there was a guy named Dan Stone, who's a great guy. He reached out to me and basically pitched me this thing where I could kind of do whatever I want. There's obviously this small component of it that's behind a paywall. I did not feel comfortable with the paywall. I'm just being honest; I said the same to him. I did not...

Sam Parr

not I think most people are are in the same boat as you who who come from your background

Ariel Helwani

I don't want to look. I've always been free, and that's a weird thing in its own right. Because like 30 or 40 years ago, you know, you were subscribing to Sports Illustrated. You're subscribing... like none of this. We've all programmed the audience to expect everything to be free when in reality, this stuff is worth something. Technically, it shouldn't be free, but it's been that way, and it's hard to go back. It's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I didn't feel comfortable doing that. So the conclusion that I came to was that all the proceeds I was getting from the subscriptions, I'm donating to charity. I want people to know I'm not profiting off of any of this. I'm getting it... I mean, I don't feel comfortable. I don't feel comfortable.

Sam Parr

Dude, that's crazy! So, my company, I just... this podcast was owned by my company called **The Hustle**. We just sold it for a lot of money to this company called **HubSpot**. And before we sold it, thank you, we had a daily email that reached around **2,000,000** people a day. We also owned a subscription business called **Trends** that made many **millions of dollars**. We charged **$300** a year, and I think we undercharged. What is going on? Most creators feel exactly how you feel, and I'm like, "You're crazy!" If you owned a restaurant and you were cooking every single day, grinding **8 hours a day**, would you give that food away for free?

Ariel Helwani

I can't do it. I don't know why. Even stemming from the shop stuff, this company, Breaking T, who I think is fascinating... You guys should have those guys on. They basically react to... Actually, they made this sweatshirt. I'm not... I don't even know.

Shaan Puri

what what what's their name

Ariel Helwani

so breaking t like breaking news

Shaan Puri

breaking news like kinda quick on trends with the merch

Ariel Helwani

So, like, let's say smart, for example, off the top of my head, Jorge Masvidal or Nick Diaz says, "Don't be scared, homie." The next day, they have a T-shirt out—a really cool one—and they're selling it. But they have deals with MLBPA and NHLPA, so they're making stuff in real time. It's a fascinating business. One of the guys there was a fan and made a Heilwani shirt in the midst of my whole thing. I was like, "Oh, this is great!" We split the cost and all of that. I'm donating to charity as well. I don't want... I don't know.

Sam Parr

I you've got this like this

Shaan Puri

is actually like you know a philanthropist a foreigner

Sam Parr

Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. I love you, Ariel, and I think you're totally wrong. I've listened to you enough that I know that, you know, I'm married into a Jewish family. You've got this very stereotypical Jewish guilt about you regarding your life, and I think that's weird. I think you are totally downplaying yourself. You know, it's funny, I watch you in the interviews and I can tell you're nervous or you are having issues realizing that you're the shit. So, as a fan, I will say I think you're undervaluing yourself. What?

Shaan Puri

Can I give you a free idea here for as a creator? No charge for you, Ariel. You're a friend of the house, so here's a free idea for you. Okay, one of the new little tools in the creator playbook of how to make a bunch of money... I don't know if you saw this, but Mr. Beast, who's one of the biggest YouTubers out there, launched this pop-up restaurant. Celebrities doing restaurants has kind of been a thing, but back in the day, it was sort of like, you know, it was like Margaritaville or Gordon Ramsay's, you know, Wolfgang Puck's kitchen or whatever the hell these things are. But Mr. Beast came out with Mr. Beast Burger, and overnight he had 200 locations across the country. Now, you think about this: has this guy been pouring his... did that take years of preparation? No. What's happened is there are these companies, like Breaking Tea, that exist that will create a virtual restaurant brand. What they do is they partner with, like, let's say you did just... I don't know, I don't know what your... maybe it's Chinese food. I don't know what your thing would be. Let's just say for a second it's pizza.

Ariel Helwani

matzo ball soup

Shaan Puri

Matzo. Okay, maybe you went niche again. I don't know how big the market is there, but let's say it was pizza, just for ease here. There's a whole bunch of mom-and-pop pizza shops in every city. What this company does is they partner with one in Phoenix, San Francisco, and in all these different cities. They say, "Hey, we're going to send you some custom Helwani-branded packaging." Only on Saturday nights, when there's a UFC pay-per-view, does this restaurant go live. The menu is themed; for example, it could be like a "Masvidal Pepperoni" and a "Diaz Burger," and whatever else. You can make up your own names. Basically, your fans can order with the pay-per-view. Now, Mr. Beast did his little pop-up thing, so he didn't have to really lift a finger. He just kind of said, "Alright, I'll give you some ideas on the branding of what the menu could look like." You know, yeah, we'll...

Sam Parr

approve it yeah

Shaan Puri

I'll approve it. I'll put my name behind it, and then when the time comes, I'm going to tweet out that, "Hey, this is happening," and today you can go buy from my thing. I think this thing has done somewhere between $50 million and $100 million in revenue. If you just sort of assume a 10% kickback royalty that he's getting on this, I'm pretty confident he's doing somewhere between $3.6 million a year of just recurring passive revenue from his little Mr. Beast Burger thing. Now, you're not quite Mr. Beast, but you could do something alongside the pay-per-views, and that would just be for fun. Your fans will...

Ariel Helwani

be like your I'm gonna steal that idea

Shaan Puri

but you should I can interview these guys

Sam Parr

so you've done the boxing thing you know the

Ariel Helwani

with the the one boxing yes which I made no money off of as well

Sam Parr

I know and I followed that and I I bought one

Ariel Helwani

oh yeah that was fun

Sam Parr

I don't think you understand like I'm I'm a super fan

Ariel Helwani

I appreciate it

Sam Parr

and so I would what I would do is the you you went to the new house wear

Shaan Puri

a watch boxers right now

Sam Parr

Yeah, I am. I would go to the Hawaii School of Journalism. I mean, I think that that's... guys be.

Ariel Helwani

my agent I mean these are all great ideas I love this stuff

Sam Parr

I mean, I just think that you could make, like, I would imagine you could profit **$1,000,000** a year selling a **$500** to **$1,000** whole money school of work experience.

Shaan Puri

You never heard of me before with this podcast. I did a course on writing, how to be a better writer, and again, I'm nobody. I did, I think, $250,000 last month in this course. So, you know, you sort of average that out across the year. I mean, these are like kind of $1,000,000 product lines. I create the course once, and then I just run it. I just say, "Hey, the new batch is open next month," and then it runs again. People get great value.

Ariel Helwani

at the

Shaan Puri

At the end of the thing, I say, "Hey, you know you paid whatever $900. How much value do you think you got out of this for you and your business, your career?"

Ariel Helwani

right

Shaan Puri

And they're like, you know, on average, it's $10,000. Basically, that's what they say. So they get a 10x return on their money from self-assessment on what they believe they got out of the course. So, you know, I could send a film crew to you right now, and we could film a course on how to break into journalism, how to make it as a journalist. And then screw Syracuse, the people who really want this. All you need is, you know, basically 1,000 people who really want this, who pay you $1,000 for this. That's $1,000,000 a year of basically pure profit because the video production costs are very, very small for this.

Ariel Helwani

Wow, this is great stuff! Who would have thought I'd come on here and get all these ideas? I feel like my head is spinning right now. Thank you, guys! Can you...?

Sam Parr

Can you help us now? Please talk to me about audience building. I mean, you seem like a guy who doesn't do a significant amount of growth tactics. You just... I think you're talented and you have tenacity. You've been doing it for forever. But what advice do you have for us and anyone listening who wants to break in and do what you've done? What advice do you have on audience building and getting... I mean, I know you're not a "view whore" at all, but you still want people to like your stuff, and you want a lot of people to like it. What do you think?

Ariel Helwani

you have for that so my mindset was always okay the first thing was you know look at the landscape look who's out there doing things it's okay to derive some kind of inspiration from this person or that person but at the end of the day like you need to develop a unique voice and give people a reason to tune into you right don't be a copycat don't just try to do something because someone else is doing it and so that was my big thing and that's why the interview lane I was like oh no one is doing this in mma I should you know develop my own voice in this lane and be the guy be be the leader here and so that's the first thing the the second thing is like it it's it's exhausting you know you have to work your ass off to build the audience to put the content out to make it as good as possible be consistent you know pick a day if if you're doing a a podcast or something like pick a day monday is your day don't miss a monday you know like people who do oh 1 here 2 here take a break here it's very hard you have to be consistent you have to be reliable you have to be relentless you have to be professional so my thing was you know reaching out to the fighters and the fighters who I reached out to I was very you know respectful towards I was very professional towards I didn't keep them for very long I would keep them for like 20 minutes in hopes of getting them to come back the next time right because it's not just about this time it's about the next time and the next time and it's the next time and so I don't want them in the back of their mind to say like this guy kept me for an hour what a pain in the ass I'm not gonna you know do this again and then afterwards very thankful very respectful very professional and then over time you know it was like you know developing these relationships checking in with fighters checking and it's not in my world it's fighters but it can be with anyone else if you're an interviewer and you're interviewing tech people and things like that like one big thing is you know I don't just talk to fighters when I need something from them I don't just reach out to michael bisping when I want him on my show we talk about things all the time I mean in some respects some of these guys have become friends of mine and they don't feel like they're being used it's important to be a human being towards your you know your your guests your sources your things like that and so then when it is time to ask for something they are more than happy to help you out because you've asked about their dog who passed away or their wife who had surgery or their son who won a big thing in football or whatever so these are all kind of things that you develop not with the you know to me it's always very genuine I'm not doing that I'm not checking in on the dog because I hope that in 3 weeks it's gonna pay off and he has you know you know he he he's willing to come on my show it's just being a human being about all this and and working hard working your ass off trying to be different putting the content out social media is a massive thing now obviously you can't do a show without having a social media presence and I I don't care if you have 1 follower or a 1000000 followers you gotta put the clips up because it's so funny to me I I hear from people all the time like oh that thing that rose said on your show was awesome and then in the back of my mind I'm like oh that's the one clip that we chose from the interview did you watch the interview or did you just watch the clip on my instagram and oftentimes it's just the instagram clip and that's okay it's just about being out there getting the stuff out there making it shareable and then hopefully it attracts more people to check you out and check you out but like if this doesn't happen you know I started this this particular part of my life in 2007 I graduated in 2004 it took me 14 years just to get to espn and so a lot of people are impatient and they want to see the results right away it's just not gonna be that way

Sam Parr

How many people, first of all, I want to know how often are you working? Because UFC fights end at 1 AM midnight in New York, and you do a post, you do a recap show often. But how often are you working? And also, how many people does it take to run your content operation?

Ariel Helwani

so I feel honestly I feel like I work every day I don't know if that's good or bad but it's it's for the most part with pleasure like I I don't ever feel like man I need a break I need a vacation this and that now part of going back to the therapist I was terrified of leaving espn and then kind of disappearing however I then came to the conclusion hey you know what distance makes the heart grow fonder for me and for them and so june 15th was my last day at espn and I essentially disappeared till august 15th I was still on social media I was still doing stuff here and there but I took a 2 month break and it was freaking awesome because I went home to canada to see my parents for the first time in 2 years because of the pandemic I just I really needed that break and I think that that's important if you're doing something you know for you know for a very long time I think it's important to give yourself you know that type of break as well but for for the most part now I feel like I'm working every day especially with all these different people and all these different projects and there's travel and stuff like that there is no real break and I'm okay with that you just kinda find your moments I could be a lot better I wish I could put the phone away a lot sooner at night I wish I didn't wake up and check my phone right away I wish I was a little more present at times I'm working on that but I gotta tell you guys like I feel like I'm working every day but I'm also in this state where I've never been happier and the the work has been so fulfilling and it puts me in such a good mood to create this stuff and to be there for people like there is no greater compliment that I can get when someone writes me and said I had a horrible day and then I checked out your show and it made me forget about my day or during the pandemic I was so down and you in dc used to make me laugh and you know I just got a message from someone who's in australia and it's been horrible there with the lockdowns and you you know I'm so happy your show is 4 hours again because you give me 8 hours a week of stuff to think about outside of the lockdown I could think about mma and I have access to these fighters like there is no greater joy than I get than that and so I don't mind it but also you know I haven't been to a ufc fight in a year and a half march of 2020 was my last ufc fight and partly because of the pandemic now partly because of my job and you ask me right now big time ufc fight conor mcgregor's return fight las vegas t mobile sold out crowd on a saturday night in july the buzz the celebrities the atmosphere nothing better right or you ask me do you wanna go to your son's soccer game with 10 other parents there at the park nearby I am choosing that soccer game without a a a a shadow a shadow of a doubt in my mind like I get so much enjoyment at being at those games being a parent being with my kids but then also doing the work that fulfills me and makes me happy there was a time where I thought I had to be at every event leave my family travel every weekend because I needed to be omnipresent because woody allen once said 80% of success is just showing up and that served me early in my life and career it doesn't serve me anymore and so now that I'm able to pick and choose what I wanna do and work with people who I wanna work with and do the kind of content that I wanna do but also be there for my family and my kids at this stage of their lives gives me a lot of joy and so I never thought I would get to this?

Ariel Helwani

Where, wow, I don't have to go to the events, and I could still do great stuff. I can still be happy, still be followed, and still produce amazing work. I can also be there for my kids. In a weird way, I'm so thankful to the man above because I feel like it all kind of fell into place at this point in my life.

Sam Parr

someone will

Shaan Puri

Send that clip to Connor. Ariel chooses a soccer game—oh, it's a 6-year-old soccer game—over Conor McGregor's return.

Ariel Helwani

It's the truth, and I just use Connor because that's the biggest name possible. Obviously, you know he's been very good to me, and it's been an absolute honor. I would love to go to events, you know, of course, like one a week or, sorry, one a year, two a year, three a year, four. I got to go to the Jake Paul thing, and that was a great, great experience. I was just using the most, you know, crazy example possible, the biggest name possible. I used to have FOMO. I used to feel sad and depressed when I wasn't at the events because I felt like I was missing out and becoming irrelevant. I don't feel that way anymore. I feel very confident in what I'm doing.

Sam Parr

and before we wrap up the the content team what what's your team and process looking at

Ariel Helwani

oh right yes so right now you know it kind of so the dream obviously is to like you know I think I don't know if you guys are fans of pat mcafee but I think that he is doing media in sports at least better than anyone right now he is just doing an incredible job and he has his group of like I think 8 or so guys doing work for him and his social media is brilliant because they're often tweeting out things and he's not even a part of it it's just like this well oiled machine and then he's going to do smackdown he has his private plane I mean what a life this guy lives now I am nowhere near that at the moment I also didn't play in the nfl but right now I have I would say 3 people who work with me 1 person's social media 1 person's video 1 person's audio and that's just me you know my llc type of thing and then I have people who are working on other projects you know the vox stuff they have people who work with me there ringer people etcetera but yeah I would love to to grow that out but I think the 3 most important people to have right now it doesn't have to be I mean like I all those interviews that you saw for me over the years I only had 1 cameraman I didn't and and I didn't have an audio person I didn't have anything I don't think you need a gigantic team of people to do stuff but yes it would be nice over time to have you know maybe 2 social media people and have this person who's thinking of this and someone who's you know managing like I I was laughing because you know you said you had ben who did the scheduling I was like man I wish I had a ben I wish I had someone doing my scheduling I wish I I was in that position or I could even delegate some of that stuff that's part you know my problem as well I I I don't do well at delegating but it will come it will grow and then eventually it'll be fun to have a store a merch store to do the stuff that you're talking about and maybe make money off of it and not feel bad about it I mean there's a lot more I feel like I'm just I'm 39 I've never been happier about you know like my age my life and I remember when I I was a a young kid and we went to to boston and my mom turned 40 and I remember she locked herself in the bathroom and she was crying because she was so sad that she turned 40 and I joke about this with her now as I'm about to turn 40 thank god she's still alive and well and I'm like I'm so happy to be 40 I feel I'm way happier at 39:40 than I was at 1920 and I just can't wait to see how this all

Shaan Puri

Plays out. Last thing I wanted to ask you real quick: you've mentioned Jake Paul, and you talked about audience building and all the good stuff—consistency, quality, hard work. But there's also controversy. Jake Paul is a master of controversy. Conor McGregor is a master of controversy. You have leaned into the controversy. I don't know if you've leaned in; I don't know if it's a work. I don't know if this is actually backed away, but you know, you are the number one MMA guy and you're banned for life from UFC events because the president of the UFC has a feud with you. Brendan Schaub now has a little bit of a feud with you, and it's highly entertaining. I click every single one of them because, you know, everybody loves drama. Everybody loves to fight. We all turn our heads and look when there's a brawl that breaks out.

Sam Parr

I'm I'm I'm I'm at your clip his his it's called ask the nose I believe and it's

Ariel Helwani

the nose

Sam Parr

On the nose, sorry. It's been all about lately his fight with other folks. It's great.

Shaan Puri

So, tell me about that. Leaning into that, is that intentional? Is that good for business? Are you having fun with it? Are you actually angry? What's going on?

Ariel Helwani

okay well I'll just say I am not banned for life I was banned for 48 hours but that was back in 2016 over time there's been some revisionist history where people think I'm still banned I'm not banned I've been to a bunch of events since then but yes of course there was that feud there that happened and all this stuff and and that's all well and good and now as I've come you know into this new era and this persona healwani thugnose el nadiz whatever you wanna call me I've just enjoyed being able to respond to people and I think part of this comes from the fact that when I was at espn they kept telling me take the high road take the high road like a lot of people were taking shots at me and I had to take the high road take the high road muzzle muzzle muzzle muzzle muzzle censor yourself and then all of a sudden I become free and I think as a byproduct of being told to take the high road for the last 3 years I just kinda snapped and exploded and I think people have enjoyed see look I'm not this wimp that people think I am I don't have big muscles I'm not a fighter I'm not this but I'm a crazy fiery middle eastern kid who grew up getting into fights all the time while I was playing sports arguing with like I'm not the you know I have glasses I look nerdy whatever I'm and at times I've actually leaned into that because that's a good gimmick in this world of you know big strong fighters alpha males I'm the beta but I'm really not that guy and the idea of letting people talk smack about me walk all over me disparage my name lie about me it's just not gonna happen anymore and so I don't care and it was funny like brandon was saying like I wouldn't say this to his face like did you guys forget that I stood in front of rampage jackson when he wanted to like bite my head off did you guys forget that nick diaz wanted to beat me up did you guys forget that you know mayhem miller trashed my studio and I just sat there like I'm I would say anything to anyone's face I'm not the guy who sits in front of a keyboard or a camera and says stuff that wouldn't you know that I wouldn't have the courage to say in front of anyone's face and I don't think I'm disrespectful I just you know am not that guy and so I think he said a bunch of lies about me and then I just kinda said something and people liked it and then he kept doubling down and so I didn't go into all this saying like oh I'm gonna come out and start wars with people and start all this beef it's just like now I don't have someone telling me to take the high road and I'm a little older and I'm a little more confident and I'm a little wiser and people are enjoying you know I I I yeah I'll be honest like I I've realized over time you know people wanna know more about me they wanna see me talk about myself it doesn't always have to be about the guests and all that stuff and that takes some time you know to get used to because it's it's it's taught you know you're you're you're taught very early on in your career like it's not about you you're not the story but yeah now I'm just having fun with it and and yeah I'm a pro wrestling fan and I I I like the the drama and all that stuff you could say what you will about all of it but at the end of the day none of it is fake none of it is a work I'm not looking for any of this I'm not trying to get paid off of any of this I'm not trying to do it for the views and all that I'm just tired of people talking shit about me and me having to eat it and so those days are over and I don't care who you are I'm going to clap back as they say and I think I'm pretty damn good at the promos and I may not be able to fight you and I have no interest in fighting you but I think I could go toe to toe with you in a in a verbal war and so yeah it it it feels good to stick up for yourself

Sam Parr

And this is why I was nervous to talk to you. I fully believe that you're sharp and you're not afraid. So, we're at the top of the hour. I want to be respectful. Dude, this has been badass! I hope you don't talk too much about yourself as a guest, and I hope you've enjoyed this because I think a lot of...

Ariel Helwani

People enjoyed it. I hope you guys have enjoyed it and felt like this was worth your while. I appreciate all the questions about building the business and betting on yourself. I'm learning a lot about that as well, especially now with all this LLC stuff. My head hurts talking to my accountant! But I would urge anyone out there who is passionate about what they do and believes in it. I don't have a lot of confidence. If you and I, Sam, went to get a coffee right now, you would be a much more confident person than I am. You would walk up there with your chest out, probably because you just sold your company for a few million and you're loving life. Life couldn't be better for you. I'm actually a very shy person, a quiet person. I keep to myself and I had horrible social anxiety. However, when it comes to this stuff, I believe in myself. I believe that no one could do it better than me. That sounds cocky, but it took me a long time to actually be able to say that. So, I'm really enjoying getting to do this stuff on my own and doing it the way I want to do it, without anyone telling me how to do it. I appreciate your interest in my story, and I appreciate you guys.

Sam Parr

the it's been a therapy session for all of us maybe a little bit

Ariel Helwani

Well, Thursdays are my therapy day. I was actually going to have my session, but I canceled it for you guys. So, I'm doubling down here because we were supposed to— I don't know if you guys know this— we were supposed to do this last month, and you stood me up. No, I'm just joking. I'm not going to go back there.

Sam Parr

well as your therapist will

Shaan Puri

end with call this letting go letting letting go of

Ariel Helwani

of stairs letting go type I hold on to things forever that's part of

Sam Parr

my problem as well yeah I know I know I've listened to you long enough

Ariel Helwani

I know this but I love it I you gotta

Sam Parr

Charge more. Don't feel guilty about that. As your therapist today, that would be my feedback. Because if you are the best you, you deserve the best.

Ariel Helwani

Thank you, I appreciate that. In fact, I don't know when this is coming up, but I'll just say, part of me trying to tinker with things, I'm doing a thing for the founding members of my Substack this evening. I'll do it three more times over the course of the year, where it's just the founding members—the people who paid $180 to sign up. So, the Substack is $5 a month, $50 a year, or there's the founding member deal, which is $180. I picked $180 because the number 18 is a special number for Jewish people. I'm doing a super secret, VVIP, one-night-only, no holds barred Zoom chat with the people who signed up, where they can ask me whatever they want for an hour.

Sam Parr

gonna be there

Ariel Helwani

are you gonna be there

Sam Parr

yes

Ariel Helwani

well I appreciate you signing up

Sam Parr

yes but

Ariel Helwani

Don't record this and take notes to post it to your millions of followers because it's supposed to be very, very private. I'm going to spill all the tea and release all the dirt on all the bad people out there, but it's just for us, our little group. Honestly, I'm kind of nervous that no one's going to show up, so it might just be me and you, Sam. Just for the record.

Sam Parr

I would love that

Ariel Helwani

a dream

Shaan Puri

come true as sam calls it

Sam Parr

Yeah, well, thanks, man. This is badass! Hopefully, you've enjoyed it. This is awesome. You gotta come back again.

Ariel Helwani

I would I would be happy to just don't you know stand me up next time

Sam Parr

yeah let go bro

Ariel Helwani

thanks guys