MFM #158: How We're Going to Buy Michael Jordan's House (and Make a Profit)

Sam Parr

Look if you don't figure this out you're fucked you're broke

Shaan Puri

damn what's up

Sam Parr

Sean, why do we keep getting two things that are kind of keeping me up at night? The first, which doesn't keep me up at night but weirds me out, is: why do people keep confusing us? The second thing, and the one that does keep me up at night, is that I don't know if they're saying it just about me or about both of us, but they say that we look differently than they thought.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, they... and I think both are like insults wrapped in disguise. They're not saying anything bad, but the way they're kind of laughing makes me think it's not a good thing. I don't think it's an upgrade for them when they see it.

Sam Parr

Someone said that I write like a bro but I look like a nerd, and I'm like, "You're insulting both!" I... like, how do you make me look? I wanna look like a bro maybe and talk... or wait, which one do I wanna do? I wanna look like a bro and talk like a nerd maybe?

Shaan Puri

that's hilarious

Sam Parr

yeah so so what do thing

Shaan Puri

People mix up that. It means for months they've just been listening to this, so they think I'm you, they think you're me. And when they follow us, you know, they have it all wrong.

Sam Parr

it's kinda funny and then I have do you know what e foiling

Shaan Puri

what what's efoil what are you talking about

Sam Parr

I'm about to rent one. It's a $12,000 device, and it looks kind of like a wakeboard. However, it has a 3 to 4-foot rudder that sticks out on the bottom of it. On the bottom of that rudder is a motor. It's like a boosted skateboard with a handheld acceleration device. You lift off, and you ride 3 feet above the water.

Shaan Puri

I've seen this now that you say it. I thought you were talking about something related to, like, I don't know, microphones or voices. You just switched topics with a hard left turn, but I appreciate that. So, I saw this because... what's the name of that one surfer guy who's, like, super famous?

Sam Parr

laird hamilton

Shaan Puri

Yeah, Laird Hamilton. I saw him doing this where he was... I don't know if his was even taller, but basically he was surfing with, you know, there's like an underground fin. Then he's elevated above the water and he was like... and there's, it's like a jet ski that he's standing on. It was kind of crazy. Sounds like that's what this is.

Sam Parr

yeah well I'm about to go do it in a in an hour I'm pumped

Shaan Puri

is this the next pick up

Sam Parr

Before we get into ideas, it might be... I'm getting ads for it constantly on social media. It might be we have a good episode today because you brought something up that is incredibly interesting. I went deep on it, but before we get into that, can I tell you a quick story?

Shaan Puri

yeah go for it

Sam Parr

Okay, so a few weeks ago, I got mocked on the internet for doing this "trap in a closet" with Andrew Chen. So this guy named Andrew Chen is a partner at Andreessen Horowitz. He's got a cool startup blog, but I heard one of the wilder stories from him recently. When he was in, I think, 6th grade, he took the SAT and scored really high. When he did, I think it's the University of Washington that does this thing where every 5 or 10 years, they take 5 or 10 students per year who are in 6th or 7th grade, sometimes younger, like 12 years old, and they ask them to come to college. Andrew was one of those students. So, in 6th grade, I think he skipped 7th grade and went straight to college. He moved into a dorm and started attending college. I asked him who else was in his class, and he actually said Emmett Shear from Twitch was one of the folks who went to college with him. And here's where it gets even crazier. He moved away from home, which I think his parents were from the same state, but it was like he moved half an hour or however far away from home. He lived there as a college student and understandably was kind of embarrassed. He didn't really tell a lot of people. So, they thought that even though he was whatever age you are in 7th grade, they kind of assumed he was just another 18-year-old. Apparently, he told me that he even dated a girl. He just kind of acted normal and didn't hide it from them, but he didn't bring it up. They didn't find out until senior year or something like that when everyone was turning 21. They were like, "When do you turn 21?" and he was like, "Oh, I'm actually 17 years old," or 16, whatever.

Shaan Puri

16 yeah

Sam Parr

And it's a pretty wild story. I asked him, "Who else was part of this program?" He said the founder of Twitch was involved, along with some person running a huge hedge fund. Just like *baby geniuses*—a really crazy, fascinating story. Apparently, the University of Washington still does this every year, where they select... I forget what they call the program, but it's a thing where they have psychologists and therapists meet with the kids every quarter, every month, to discuss what's going on. It was incredibly fascinating. In a very typical genius response, I said, "Isn't that weird that you skipped high school?" He was like, "Well, when you think about it, adolescence is really just a societal constraint." I kind of experienced a state where I was like, "Oh yeah, I mean, I guess you're right." But like, thanks for proving my point?

Shaan Puri

Age is just a figment of my imagination

Sam Parr

yeah isn't that wild

Shaan Puri

That is wild. I also... I don't know if that's true because Emmett definitely went to Yale, and so did Justin Conn. So, I don't know.

Sam Parr

What? Maybe it was through Yale, but he said that Emmett was part of the same program. Or maybe he dropped out. Like, he said that Emmett...

Shaan Puri

was part age 13 I love it

Sam Parr

Would you say that Emmett was part of his program? I don't know what the program meant. They do it in a ton of different schools, but like a 13-year-old freshman in college.

Shaan Puri

Would you let your kid do this, or would you want your kid to do this? Let's say your kid's 12 and scores high on a test. Would you want them to skip high school and become a 13-year-old college student, amidst the crazy 18-year-olds?

Sam Parr

So, it's a good question because my gut instinct is probably the same as everyone else's, which is that high school is important. You learn about yourself, and it's important to go through all that normal stuff. But we also complain that high school often, or that what you learn in high school, is kind of bullshit. So, what does the world look like if you combine the two? I don't know, but isn't that a wild story?

Shaan Puri

yeah that that's crazy I

Sam Parr

I such a fun fact about someone

Shaan Puri

Yeah, I also think it's an interesting strategy for the colleges. Why are they doing this? I think it's kind of cool. I remember the reason I ended up going to Duke is because they had this thing called the TIP program, which is the Talent Identification Program. You would take the, I don't know, the PSATs or something like that. If you scored above a certain threshold, Duke would send you this kind of kit, this goodie bag. It basically felt like getting an owl from Hogwarts. It was like, "Hey, you're 12, and we want to invite you to this special school for the gifted and talented." It just said, "You scored high on this. We have identified you as a talented person. We would love to have you come visit our campus." And, like, eventually, it worked. I went to Duke. I didn't put two and two together at the time, but if I think about it, that's why I started paying attention to them. That's why I started following the basketball team. That's how I even heard about it. Otherwise, as a 12-year-old kid, you don't even hear about colleges, right? So, I thought that was pretty interesting. If you think about it, these schools are for profit. They're trying to get tuition; they're trying to get people to come in and pay the $40,000 to $50,000 to go to school. These little investments... who doesn't like to be called talented? Who doesn't like to be called a phenom? What parent doesn't want their kid to be identified as special? That stuff works, and I'm surprised that more schools don't do this. When I start my school, I, too, am going to do this.

Sam Parr

Yeah, I'm trying to do some research on it right now while we're talking, and it's not really effective. But you'll have to look up this program when you're done. It's just a really interesting thing. It was funny to meet someone who went through it, and it was just such a silly fun fact about someone.

Shaan Puri

By the way, my roommate in college... when we got to college, I was like, "Yeah, yeah," you know, we were all 17 or 18, whatever we were as freshmen. He was like, "Yeah," but then I noticed his expression and I was like, "Whoa, what?" He said, "Well, I'm like 19 and a half, about to turn 20." I was like, "What? Why are you so old?" Basically, they do the exact opposite when it comes to sports. In sports, the common thing to do is to like sandbag your kid and basically hold your kid back a grade or send them to school a year late. This way, they're always bigger, faster, and stronger than all the other kids in their grade. You're always like the star athlete because you have an extra year of development, or you have a better shot, I should say, of being a star athlete. He was from Wyoming, and he was like, "Oh dude, in Wyoming, that's par for the course. Every 6th grader is like an 8th grader's age because everybody wants to have their kid be..."

Sam Parr

When I was in my first two years of college, I was an athlete. I would compete against these guys, and there were two groups of people that we would like. I was friends with them, but we would tease about how it's a little unfair. The first group was Kenyan runners. I think there’s an exemption if you serve in the military, so you get to compete in college athletics until you're 26 years old. This was about 10 years or 8 years ago, so I’m not sure of the exact rules. The second group was related to religious commitments. Mormons, for example, would go on a mission at age 18 for two years. This meant they would be 20-year-old freshmen, which made them 24-year-old seniors in college. So, I was 18 my freshman year, competing against 24 and 25-year-olds. Yeah, the Mormons and the Kenyans, and anyone who served in the military, had a bit of an advantage.

Shaan Puri

And I know this topic is basically, nobody gives a shit about what we're talking about. But I will say there is a lesson in life: you get to choose. Are you gonna punch up or punch down? The Andrew Chen thing—going to college at 12 or 13—that's a kid who's punching up. You're in an unfamiliar circumstance, stretching beyond what you know. You're playing in the bigger leagues than where you are. Then there are the athletes who are held back years or come back and compete against people 2 to 5 years younger than them. That's punching down in weight. I would say punching down has some benefits because typically, you're gonna score better and do better in these little games, you know, in high school or college athletics. But in the end, you really want to be somebody who punches up. I think for long-term success, you want to be someone who punches up—someone who's always in a room where you're just barely hanging on. Because it'll push you to get better more so than just dominating people because you're older and stronger than them.

Sam Parr

Well, it worked for Andrew Chen. I think he's 38 years old, but I was like, "But you're really like 45, right?" Like, you're in the experience of a 45-year-old.

Shaan Puri

alright let's get to the topic

Sam Parr

First full-time job at 18. Okay, let's get to the first one. So, Sean put something on here that I actually think... I was telling a friend as I was researching. I actually think that this is one of the better ideas that we—and you've ever come up with—the Michael Jordan thing. Alright.

Shaan Puri

you want me to yeah you want me to explain it okay so I've been looking at this house for a long time michael jordan's house has been for sale for like a decade and it hasn't sold and this is his house kind of like in in illinois near chicago where you know michael jordan was on the bulls and he had this 56,000 square foot home in highland park and so this thing originally he put it up for sale in like I don't know 9 years ago for $30,000,000 $29,000,000 and now it's you know the price has been cut in half and the thing is still not selling and if you look at the photos you can just go it's like on zillow so you can go look at the photos he's got like an indoor basketball court you know the gate leading up to the driveway has his big 23 number like embossed in it he's got you know everything you would want like huge you know closets because he's got you know all his air jordans or whatever and so his house is it's pretty unbelievable right there's there's all kinds of epic shit here but it's not selling and it's not selling for I think a couple reasons it's like you know it's very custom to michael jordan like it just it's like it was custom made in in in many senses so you know the other rich people don't necessarily wanna live in a house that's like made for another dude it's also you know it's very expensive for the area the property taxes are really expensive all that stuff but I was thinking okay the price is now cut in half now it's now it's a $13,000,000 house or a 12 you know $13,000,000 home that you could buy 13 14 and now it's in range where maybe there's something fun you could do with it now you might be getting a value buy so I was thinking alright there's a bunch of people obviously that are basketball fans that love michael jordan there's a bunch of you know new ways to crowdfund that we've been talking about nfts or kickstarter or different different crowdfunding platforms so the question is should we buy michael jordan's house should we start a crowdfunding campaign and buy michael jordan's house so if you could get 5,000 people to each put in $25100 then you could own a fractional share of michael jordan's house you could you you could own a piece of of this history and we could just buy it out take it off the market and we could own this thing and then the question is like what do you do with it and so I wanted to brainstorm with you a should we buy michael jordan's house and b what could we do with it if we did buy it what do you think

Sam Parr

So, the whole NFT thing? I wouldn't do that. I think you've had two ideas here: one is to buy his house, and the other is to do the NFT thing. One of those ideas is great; I think the other one is overcomplicating it. I would 100% buy it, and the reason why I think it's such a great idea is that immediately after seeing you write this, my thought right away went to Graceland. You know what Graceland is? No? That's funny that you don't know what that is. It's because it's such a big deal in my family—or Elvis's, at least. So, Graceland is Elvis Presley's house. It's in Memphis, in downtown Memphis. It's actually in a pretty crappy neighborhood now; the neighborhood is not nice and it's kind of gross. But it's just like a cutesy thing to do if you visit Memphis. I went and did research on it, and around 600,000 people a year go to Graceland, which brings in something like... where I have the numbers here... okay, so Graceland, just in attendance, just in ticket sales, brings in $21,000,000. So, it's pretty wild, just on tickets.

Shaan Puri

600,000 visitors a year at $36 a ticket.

Sam Parr

Yes, and I got interested in this. I thought, "What are the most visited homes in America?" So, I came up with a few, and I want to fill you in on them. The White House doesn't count because you can just... I think you can get a tour, but you could also just walk outside of it. Graceland has 600,000 visitors. The second one, you guys are going to make fun of me, but I don't know how to pronounce this. What is it? Monticello?

Shaan Puri

I think so

Sam Parr

Okay, Monticello—that's Thomas Jefferson's house. The interesting thing about this place, as well as a few others I'm going to mention, is that they're nonprofits. This means all of their numbers are public. The revenue from Monticello, which includes a ton of investment revenue, was around **$200,000,000** in 2010. However, around **$8,000,000** to **$7,000,000** came just from ticket sales. So, **$8,000,000** a year in ticket sales, which is crazy! They have around **500,000** visitors. Another highly visited home is Neverland Ranch. People don't go there, but another great one is Mount Vernon, which is, I think, George Washington's house—our first president. They do, in food sales alone, this is crazy—**$17,000,000** a year. Wow, is that crazy?

Shaan Puri

this is insane

Sam Parr

The whole operation does $15,000,000 a year in admission sales. In total, they generate about $51,000,000 a year in total income, which includes $10,000,000 from contributions. Is that crazy?

Shaan Puri

No, that's absolutely insane. So let me ask you this: all of a sudden, this starts to get really interesting, right? Because I think Michael Jordan is on par with Elvis and, you know, Thomas Jefferson. Michael Jordan's got TJ beat by a long shot. So, you know, MJ over TJ, I think, is part of the slogan that we have when we buy this thing. But if they're doing this much in traffic, I gotta know: is there something else? Meaning, like, are these in really popular areas where there's already just a lot of tourists or something like that? And this is just a pit stop because, you know, Michael Jordan's house is in a neighborhood. You'd have to only be going to this place.

Sam Parr

I looked up Michael Jordan's address. Guess how far away it is from Chicago Airport, one of the most popular airports in the world?

Shaan Puri

I'm gonna guess 45 minutes

Sam Parr

20 minutes... it's 20 minutes away. Okay, so it's at... have you been to Memphis? Memphis is like, there's not that much going on in Memphis. All these people are going to Memphis. People from Chicago, which is what, the 5th most populous city in America? Or maybe 3rd? Something like that. Something is interesting here. So what I would do is, I wouldn't do the NFT thing. I would raise $2 or $3 million from a bunch of rich people, or I would try to use my own money if I had $2 or $3 million that I wanted to spend on this. I would buy it, and then it would probably cost a fair bit of money to get it set up. It would probably cost a lot of money—many more millions. But then you would have to convince collectors to lend you the stuff, and you could create a Michael Jordan museum.

Shaan Puri

yes

Sam Parr

And that's how you do this. The companies that we've just mentioned—Graceland, Monticello, and Mount Vernon—obviously, those folks lived in the 1700s or probably died in the 1800s. So, those properties have been around as tourist destinations for over 100 years. They've generated $50,000,000 in revenue, which is a significant amount. But even if you've just done $2 or $3 million in revenue and you could adjust for inflation over 50+ years, kind of like Graceland has done it for 60 years, that's incredibly fascinating.

Shaan Puri

Right, yeah, I'm with you. So, I think you're sitting on the NFT thing a little bit, but it's not about NFTs. What I'm saying is crowdfunding. I think that there's a benefit to crowdfunding, which is that it can make the story more viral. It's a more PR-worthy story. For example, people from the internet, people from Reddit, whoever, got together and bought Michael Jordan's home off the market for $15,000,000. They raised $15,000,000 and bought the house, versus a rich guy going to his rich friends to raise some money. The second thing is that those people become your evangelists to spread the word and to make the pilgrimage to see Michael Jordan's house. I think you could do two or three things with it. You could make it a museum, like a modern museum that we've been talking about, such as the Museum of Ice Cream. The tour could be very photo-based, so you're going through and experiencing all these different photo exhibits, like you in Michael Jordan's bed, or wearing a pair of his Air Jordans, or standing in a pair of his giant Air Jordans. You could make it like the Museum of Ice Cream, where you're going to walk out with, you know, ten photos that are Instagram-worthy at the end of it. I also think...

Sam Parr

give give people background on an ice cream museum

Shaan Puri

Yeah, Brady, you can pull the latest numbers, but I think these guys raised it to a **$100,000,000+** valuation. If you ever go to one, they're pretty cool. It's not the most amazing thing, honestly; I was a little bit disappointed. But the photos do turn out cool. It's a museum that you walk through, so it's like a guided path. You go through maybe like **13** different rooms, and every room has something cool. You get a little ice cream cone of some flavor, and then you can take photos next to some exhibit that they've set up. The idea is not for you to look at the art like a traditional museum, but for you to take a photo in the art and post it on Instagram. That's their marketing; that's the free marketing that they get. So, the Museum of Ice Cream... oh yeah, here, everybody has it. They raised **$40,000,000**; they raised a **$40,000,000** Series A at a **$200,000,000** valuation last year. I think this could be bigger. I think this could be much, much bigger as a brand. The other thing you could do is that sports cards are having this incredible boom right now. I think what you could do is have certain collectors put their collection in the house. The house could be basically the vault to store some of the most rare memorabilia in the sports world—signed basketball shoes and sports cards—and that could be part of the museum. You would basically store it for some of these collectors. So, I think there's a bunch of stuff you could do to make this work. But the idea is: can you buy this thing for **$13,000,000**, put another **$4,000,000** or **$5,000,000** into getting it all set up, and then could you make **$5,000,000** a year? Could you make **$10,000,000** a year, like you're saying these other guys do, as a pilgrimage for tourists going to Chicago and basketball junkies?

Sam Parr

I think the answer is definitely yes. I found it so interesting that I came across another example. It's called the **National Trust for Historic Preservation**. It's a nonprofit organization, and all they do is buy historical buildings. I looked at their numbers, and they've been generating about **$50 to $60 million** in revenue for years. I'm still trying to figure out how to entirely read nonprofit statements, but they have a line item that's "revenue less expenses," which I guess just means profit. I mean, I don't know how they define it.

Shaan Puri

let's keep it up yeah

Sam Parr

I don't know how they define either of those, but it was **$26,000,000** and it's been doing that for years. Is that nuts?

Shaan Puri

So, I like this idea. I like this idea a lot, and I kind of want to dig a little further into how these home museums work because I think this is pretty interesting. The other good thing about this, by the way, is that the Basketball Hall of Fame sucks. Nobody cares about it; nobody goes to visit it. All the other sports, like Canton for football, these are like tourist destinations. You know, tons of people go there every year. It's really cool. The basketball one is known to be super lame because they let way too many people in, and it's not something that basketball fans really care to go do.

Sam Parr

Can I give you two more examples of what we could consider doing instead of even doing a museum? Maybe this is even simpler. So, I'm staying at my friend Jack's house. It's a badass house, about five or ten doors down. Nearby is what they call the "Obama House." When Obama was in office, from 2008 to 2012, during his second term, he would stay at this house down here. The owners let him stay, I think, for a massive discount. Now, it's like it has its own Wikipedia page and it's called the "Obama House." It sold ten years ago for $7,000,000 after he'd already stayed there. That's a lot of money! But they rent it out right now on Airbnb for $6,000 a night, or if it's booked all the way up, $180,000 a month. It's branded as the "Obama House." I think that you could absolutely crush it with a Jordan Airbnb house. Would you and a group of friends be willing to pull together $3,000 a day to stay there? Maybe. I think... I think so.

Shaan Puri

The way you'd have to do it is to make it like a Vegas alternative for bachelor parties and stuff like that—birthdays. It's like, what is the man cave, man dream vacation? It's like, "Dude, we're gonna go stay in Michael Jordan's house. Fourteen of us are going, and it comes with all the amenities and, you know, all that stuff." This is where you go. This is where you want to go if you want to live like the sports fan's dream. I think you could do that. I do like the museum one better. What was the second idea you had? You said you had two.

Sam Parr

Well, what wasn't the second? I guess it was more so just another example: the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air house. It's kind of interesting. But do you remember living in San Francisco? How there's like the... what's it called? The Painted Ladies?

Shaan Puri

yeah

Sam Parr

Which is the full house, and then there's the missed-out firehouse. I would just want to buy all these and turn them all into tours.

Shaan Puri

So, I lived a block away from the Full House house, and literally 24/7, there is somebody standing outside of that house during the daytime taking a photo of it. There's just a constant presence. It's not like a huge line of people, but there's always about four people standing outside taking a photo in front of the Full House house every single day for the whole year. It's kind of crazy. Then, it just sold, actually, and it sold at basically like I think 1.5 or 2 times the market rate in that area. So, they got basically a double premium because it is the Full House house, which I think is, you know, kind of interesting. But, okay, I think we should buy Michael Jordan's house. I think we should crowdfund. I think we should get 5,000 people together to own this thing. Or we could go to Rally Road and say, "Hey, Rally, let's put Michael Jordan's house on Rally," and you know, let's sell this baby out. I think if 5,000 people right now, if you go on Rally Road, you'll get 2,000 or 3,000 people buying a fractional share of, you know, a pair of Jordans or a signed autograph or a signed rookie card or something like that. Forget all that! Let's own the guy's house. I think you could easily get 5,000 people on Rally Road to buy a fractional share of Michael Jordan's house. I'm surprised they don't already do this. If they're listening to this, you know, go for it! Just give us credit and give me a share of the house.

Sam Parr

I actually think that they wouldn't do that because how do you liquidate it? It's been on the market for 10 or 20 years. No one is obviously buying it, so how do you get liquidity from that after 7 years? I don't think you can. I think the game here is that...

Shaan Puri

Right, the rally is that they take things that are not assets and they make them liquid assets. Because you can own a fractional share now, there's liquidity. Any one person who owns a piece of Michael Jordan's house can swap it for anybody else who wants to own a piece of it. So, you don't need a $15,000,000 buyer because you can sell them in blocks of $1,000 or $1,500. When you bring that price down, there are people who want to own a piece of the art, a piece of the asset. This is how they do it. They'll sell, you know, a Harry Potter first edition signed set of books. Instead of selling it for $25,000, they'll get 2,000 investors to each put in, or whatever the math comes out to, $150 to own a piece of that thing. They introduce liquidity by making it fractionally owned.

Sam Parr

yes but there's still no cash flow you have to create an operation around this to create cash flow

Shaan Puri

There's no cash flow in a basketball card. There's no cash flow in Air Jordans. There's no cash flow in Harry Potter 1st edition.

Sam Parr

asian investor who's willing to buy it

Shaan Puri

No, dude, you're still thinking like the old world. You haven't seen what's going on in Raleigh. You're staying with Jack Smith. You should go ask Jack Smith about how this stuff works. He's the one who taught me, and he's one of the biggest investors in this stuff. He's not buying it for cash flow, you know? He's buying it because there is another collector. When you make it fractional, way more people can get in on collecting it versus just the rich, deep-pocketed people who could buy the whole asset 100%.

Sam Parr

Yeah, bro, but who liquidates it after a handful of years on Rally Road? Someone actually buys the car after a few years.

Shaan Puri

Very rarely, occasionally, somebody comes and offers to buy out the whole lot. Then they put it to a vote. I don't know if you've seen this, but let's say a box of Pokémon cards went on there, like a super rare Pokémon card set. I don't know what the IPO was, but on Rally, they IPO'd it. Let's pretend it was $50,000. Then what happened is a big Asian investor came in and said, "We'll buy this thing out for $85,000 now." So you'll all get a profit, but we want to own this thing. They put it to the vote of all the shareholders, and they said no. They voted to keep it. So they're not all trying to liquidate soon. Some people who are buying hold investors will want to own these assets for a long time because they think, "Hey, you know, if I just hold this now, what's Michael Jordan's fame going to be 20 years from now? If Michael Jordan passes away, how much is it going to be worth?" There are people who are in it for the long term. So I think the collectibles thing is a little bit different. I think about it differently than you do, I would say.

Sam Parr

you basically need jordan to have a good tragic accident

Shaan Puri

Or, like for example, *The Last Dance* came out. So, *The Last Dance* is a 10-part documentary that came out on Netflix and ESPN. Millions and millions of people watched this thing. You could see that Jordan's brand visibility and brand sentiment went up because this documentary came out. He's still alive; it wasn't a tragic event. But somebody told the Jordan story to the younger generation who grew up with him. You know, they were 2 years old when Jordan was at his prime. So, the Jordan brand got stronger with *The Last Dance* coming out, and I think that's just going to continue over time. His legacy becomes bigger than the person itself. But I have a different thing that's sports-related. Okay, yeah, can I do this one? So, the different thing that's sports-related ties into the idea of making assets out of things—making liquid assets out of things that were non-liquid assets. There's this company called Big League Advance. Did you see this thing?

Sam Parr

no keep going all right I'm looking it up

Shaan Puri

So, shout out to Joe Pompeiano, you know, Pump's brother. One of his brothers does these Twitter threads all the time. He did this Twitter thread that caught my eye, and it was about this player, Fernando Tatis. This guy is one of the young... I don't follow baseball anymore because baseball is slow and boring to me now, but I used to, you know, back in the day.

Sam Parr

Fernando Tatis... is that for... is it Fernando Tatis Jr.? Because, okay, when I was a kid, the senior played in Saint Louis and he was like a huge deal. I think he hit like three grand slams in one inning, and he was like our hometown hero for years.

Shaan Puri

okay that sounds crazy but yeah basically this guy is like one of the youngest star baseball players and now like he you know signed one of the big contracts so he signed a $340,000,000 deal with the padres and the interesting thing that came out of that was that this company that I had never heard of called big league advance made $30,000,000 off of that deal so who is big league advance so basically what these guys do is they go to minor league baseball players of which there are 1,000 and they say look you're making you know you don't make shit in in the minor leagues you you know you you're riding the bus you you you get paid nothing and you're hoping to one day get to the league and you're hoping one day to become a star you're hoping for the fernando tatis story where someday you'll sign a huge contract and what they do is they go and they offer you a deal so they'll say like hey we'll give you a $100,000 for 1% of your future earnings so it's an income share agreement like we've talked about with lambda school and whatnot and they'll go and they'll say you know $350,000 for 8% of all your future earnings so we'll bet on you we'll take a risk on you so you get some money today you can give your family a better life today you don't have to keep like roughing it while you work your way up but hey if you hit it big like we're gonna get paid out and they basically do a bunch of analytics on their side to try to guess which players to invest in what what is the exact deal to offer them so it's like a startup investor who's coming up with the valuation of every minor league baseball player and they know they'll lose many money on like 80% of the deals that don't pan out and they're hoping that the 20% that do turn into huge returns like a fernando tatis junior and so I think this is an awesome idea this actually is similar to a company that we've talked about called pipe pipe is they basically take companies that have saas revenue and they say hey you got all the saas revenue let's turn that into a tradable investable asset let's take your contracts you have with customers let's make it so that anyone can just buy some of your saas contracts off you and you get money today upfront for those contracts you don't have to wait the 12 months for for your customer to pay you every month and and for that that investor they're gonna get a premium you know so they'll pay you the year's worth of the contract and in exchange they get like a 12% return on on their money and you get money upfront which you can reinvest into your business so I really like these companies that are taking things that were not investable tradable assets and making them investable tradable assets and I think big league events is a cool one because it's basically betting on minor league players that might turn into stars what do you think of this

Sam Parr

Well, I'm looking at their website. How can a minor league... does that ruin the amateur status, or is there still amateur status within?

Shaan Puri

A minor league is professional. In the minor league, you are a professional player. You're part of a team's farm system, and you get paid. You're out of the college system by then.

Sam Parr

So, you can only do this for college kids, correct? Correct. That's cool. I'm looking at their website now, and I imagine this would work for golf, baseball, tennis, basketball... I guess anything that's like crazy numbers related, right? I wonder, what sports do you think are the most predictive in terms of...?

Shaan Puri

Baseball is known to be the most predictive and the most statistically modelable sport. This is because your teammates kind of don't matter when you're up there batting; it's just you. There are no team dynamics involved. In contrast, in basketball, a player's performance can be better or worse because there are five other people on the court, all moving around, and it all affects each other. But in this case, what you're basically saying is, let's say there's this guy, Spencer Dinwiddie, who tried to do this with the Nets. He had signed a contract worth, let's call it, $30 million. What he attempted to do was offer people token shares in his future. He said, "Look, I think today I'm a B-level player, but I believe I'm going to be an All-Star someday. So if you invest in me now, you'll get a share of my future contract." So, you're just betting on a player. You're saying, "I think this player is going to be a star, and I think this player is going to earn this much in his career. So, I'll invest now in an income share agreement of his future earnings." For the player, they get money upfront; they don't have to wait to earn their contracts. They also get a little bit of insurance. If anything happens, like if they get hurt or something bad occurs in their career, at least they didn't risk it all. They got paid something upfront. For a fan, it's a way to kind of bet and invest in players that you think are going to have more future earnings than what they're currently being evaluated at.

Sam Parr

This is so amazing! I'm looking at their... so they've raised $150,000,000. I think that from the looks of it, it looks like they only have about 30 employees. Do you think that's accurate? And if they made $30,000,000 from...

Shaan Puri

From this one guy alone, this was like the big home run. They've had other things where they got sued by a player because they offered him $360,000 for 10% of his future earnings. Then he tried to sue them, being like, "Oh shit, that was like a predatory deal. I didn't want to give up 10% of all my future earnings for just $360,000." But in actuality, the guy only made $1,200,000 in his career. So it actually turned out to be a profitable deal. He took $360,000 upfront and ended up only paying $120,000 out to these guys in the end. So, he dropped his lawsuit.

Sam Parr

Why is there so little information about these guys online? Do you think there's really not?

Shaan Puri

a lot they try to fly on the right hand side

Sam Parr

on a crunchbase page

Shaan Puri

They’re not a tech company; it’s just a financing company, basically. They try to fly under the radar. They also got kind of disavowed; like, Major League Baseball doesn’t like them. The Players Association said, “We do not like this conduct. We don’t say that this is a good thing.” But for a player, you know, it’s cutting a deal with an individual player, and I guess it’s allowed in baseball. Whereas in basketball, the NBA blocked the thing I was talking about. They blocked Spencer Dinwiddie from tokenizing his future contract and basically selling off future earnings. So, some leagues are not allowing it, but Major League Baseball still does allow it, and Minor League Baseball still allows it.

Sam Parr

So, my question is this: you're more of a sports guy than I am, and I'm looking at this, and it seems awesome. My question is, what actually would make this fail and not work well?

Shaan Puri

So, bad predictions. If you invest in a bunch of players that don't pan out, you could go underwater. I don't know how favorable their margin of safety is when they do this stuff. Take startups, for example. A lot of people are angel investors, and many average VC funds actually can't even beat the stock market in terms of returns. They're illiquid, they're risky, and they don't outperform. It really comes down to these guys' ability to pick and value players accurately. If they can't do it well, they're going to go broke. If they can do it well, they're going to make a bunch of money. I think that's a healthy setup.

Sam Parr

How challenging is it to do this? Because I don't know anything about sports, but I feel like this whole "Moneyball" thing seems kind of like table stakes for professional teams.

Shaan Puri

Right, I don't think it's that challenging, to be honest with you. I think that you're collecting data all the time. You have scouts and all these different ways to value players. In this case, it's such an inefficient market because minor league players make very little. The baseball teams don't want to pay them a lot. It's like, "Hey dude, do you want to live out your dream or not?" So, we'll pay you the absolute minimum required just to have you in our minor league system. What these guys are doing that's smart is they're taking a percentage of all the future earnings. I think they're basically going up against nobody right now. But I think there's an even easier way to do this in the NBA because the NBA has guaranteed contracts. Let's say I sign a 5-year, $100,000,000 deal. I'm an NBA star. Cool! That means I'm going to get $20,000,000 a year, dripped to me. So, somebody could come and offer this guy $80,000,000 upfront or $75,000,000 upfront as a lump sum. "Here's your money today, and good! You can use that; you can go ball out if you want."

Sam Parr

Does the NBA have as big of a minor league? I know they have the D-League, but I feel like I know so many friends that go into the minor league of baseball.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, so the NBA G League is not anywhere near like minor league baseball. In baseball, stars and non-stars go through the minor leagues, but stars in the NBA go straight to the NBA. They skip the G League. The G League is more for journeymen. So, you wouldn't do this with minor league players in the NBA; you would do it with actual NBA athletes. For them, what you would be doing is saying, "Cool, you're on your first contract. I'm betting that your second and third contracts are going to be bigger, and I'm willing to pay you upfront on this multi-year contract." Because, hey, it's guaranteed. You could go and break your leg tomorrow, and you're still going to get all this money from your team. The NBA has guaranteed contracts, so it's way less risky. You could just say, "Look, I'll give you this money upfront so you can go invest it. You can go ball out, buy your mom a house, or buy that thing you always wanted." In exchange, I want to get some margin on that because I'm willing to wait the 4 or 5 years for your contract to play out. I can bet on your next contract, and I can give you some money today in exchange for some percentage of your future because I think you're going to be a star.

Sam Parr

I think that this is awesome. Would you value this at a software company? Because how, like, if it's the average length of an MLB or NBA player... I don't know what it is, but I bet it's in the 8 to 10 year range. This means you have a really high LTV (lifetime value). You have, I imagine, quite a predictable stream of income. Would you value this at software or close to software?

Shaan Puri

No, I don't think so because it can't scale. That's the beauty of software; it scales sort of infinitely. You know, for every additional customer you have, you don't have that many additional costs. In this case, I think this is more like real estate. I think it's just people as property. You're buying this asset, this multifamily property that has this much rent, and it's going to cash flow for this many years. So, you basically are, I think, just buying properties.

Sam Parr

Yeah, but real estate sells for almost SaaS-like multiples. Real estate sells at like a 5 or 6% cap rate.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, but software is like 50, dude. If you go look at Salesforce or Slack, or go look at these guys' multiples, you know, it's like you're at HubSpot. HubSpot is doing $1,000,000,000 a year in top-line revenue; that's not profit. Even on the revenue, I think HubSpot's valued at what? It's like a $30,000,000,000 company or something like that. So it's a 30x multiple of revenue in that case. So, software has better multiples than real estate.

Sam Parr

sure well do you wanna talk about one more thing

Shaan Puri

yeah go for it

Sam Parr

Let's talk about... we don't have enough time, I think, to really dive deep into the studio model, but I'm really interested in this. There are two companies that I've been eyeing. The first is Atomic, which was started by a guy named Jack Abraham. He has launched maybe ten different startups, one of them being Hims, which is a multibillion-dollar company. But the more interesting person is this guy named Josh Kushner. His brother, everyone might know, is Jared Kushner, the guy who was on Trump's cabinet. Josh Kushner is married to this model... what's her name? Karlie Kloss, I think. So he has quite a fascinating lifestyle or a fascinating life. He started a small fund. He was born into a wealthy family, so he had money early on. He invested $400,000 into Instagram and made a significant sum from that. Since then, he has not only invested in companies through his fund but has really started them. One of them, or he has two of them: one is Oscar, which just went public, and his stake in that is $1.2 billion. The other one is Cadre, I think it's called, which is a rich person's investment platform. What do you think? The reason I brought this up is because you kind of had that experience a little bit. Your Bebo was kind of a startup studio. Do you like this model of starting companies and operating them, but doing more than one at a time? Or do you think that just passively investing is better?

Shaan Puri

Alright, so the thing we did, which was called **Monkey Inferno**. **Beba** was one of the companies inside **Monkey Inferno**. It was definitely a studio. In fact, before Jack started **Atomic**, we met up in our office. He said, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this studio. Tell me everything you've learned, good and bad, about running the studio so I can kind of learn from those mistakes." I told him, "Hey, here's what I think is great. Here are some of the things that trip us up. If I were you starting from scratch, here's how I would do it." And then he took that and...

Sam Parr

he took wait so jack came to you

Shaan Puri

Yeah, he came to our office, and we hung out. We brainstormed, and I kind of told him, "Look, these are the strengths and weaknesses of the studio model. How are you planning to do it?" To his credit, what he had as an idea coming in was already the exact advice I was recommending. So it's not like I told him he should do X, Y, Z, and then he went and did it. He was already planning to do it that way. At the time, I was like, "You know, good luck," because very few studios succeed. There are many, many studios. The reason studios happen is that a successful entrepreneur wins. They take some of their lottery winnings and think, "Alright, I’m going to do a studio this time because I can't pick one idea. I just want to do a bunch of cool things." Now, they have their own money; they don't need other investors as much, or they can easily raise money from investors because they have a big reputation. You saw Garrett Camp, the co-founder of Uber; he starts a studio. Mark Pincus, the founder of Zynga; he starts a studio. Kevin Rose, who sold his company to Google, then starts a studio. Michael Birch, who sold Bebo to AOL, started the studio that I ran. There are a whole bunch of these guys that do this stuff, and very few of them have success. We didn't have any breakout wins. Garrett Camp from Uber didn't win. Mark Pincus didn't win. Kevin Rose didn't win. For a long time, there were literally zero breakout winners from studios. Recently, however, there have been a few that have worked. Atomic has had a few successes. Hims is like the big win for them; it's a public company now, I believe, and a multibillion-dollar win that they incubated in their studio. Then there are the BarkBox guys. I think their studio is called Prehype. They took BarkBox public and have done very well. I think they also have a brand called Row, which is a competitor to Hims. So now there have been a few that have gotten on the scoreboard, so it definitely can work. I would say the odds are that...

Sam Parr

studios don't drive

Shaan Puri

and now thrive yeah thrive with oscar going public is is great and so I would say the odds are still you know it's just like startups where it's startups 90% of startups you know fail similar similar odds of the studio it's not like you get that much better I would say a couple of things super fun to do because who wouldn't want this it's like an entrepreneur's playground you get to go to work dream up ideas you have a bunch of teams that are building them all in parallel in theory you're killing the the losers and you're doubling down on the winners and you know you're just being super creative every day so it's like the dream job then does it do you actually increase your odds of success on one hand yes because you're getting multiple shots on goal you're not you don't have all your eggs in one basket with one idea the second thing is that you're learning pretty rapidly so you're learning from all these different reps these different attempts you're doing and you're keeping the team together so like when a team even if you fail the team retains those learnings and just applies it to the next project right away whereas in a normal startup if you fail it's like everybody goes and gets a job for 2 years because now you're you know you just did this thing for 3 years it didn't work you're in debt you need to go make some money and so typically the team breaks up and goes and does something else in this case the team sticks together the learnings are retained so that's what's good the bad part which I think is what you're gonna focus on the big but of this whole model that I think is what makes it not a great idea if you're if you're optimizing for success I don't think this is the best way is you're not focused because you have multiple ideas and you know one of the benefits of one of the key things in life is is focus and laser focus on on making something successful and the second thing which is kind of related to that is like shiny object syndrome every project goes through like kind of periods of plateaus like I remember with the hustle you started off you know with the events and then you started the blog and then like there was a moment I remember our conversations where you were like the blogs are bringing in a bunch of traffic but I don't think this is working I need to figure out something else what if I did this daily email newsletter right you were like trying to figure out what do we do is it video is it this newsletter what is it and in a studio when that happens when you plateau or things just stop working or some growth stalls it's super easy to instead of being like fuck how do we find a way out of this how do what can we try to make this work it's really easy to be like hey what about that other idea that we're doing like that one's still super exciting it's not in a plateau right now so you just like unconsciously start to spend more energy on the thing that's not stuck because like who wants to stay in a fucking stuck on a stuck project but as an entrepreneur you have no choice you told everybody you told your investors you told your team you told your mom I am building this and you have to find a way and that's like the most valuable thing a startup has is that like the the the the do or die situation for a startup and I think a studio takes away the do or die mentality because it's like do this or do that or do that or do the other thing and so you have all these options and those options actually they actually take away your biggest asset as a startup so I would say if you're going for fun studios are dope if you're going for success I think that going like dabbling and picking a startup to go all in on is a better model than trying to run a studio with multiple projects

Sam Parr

And that's actually what I remember from our conversation years ago when we started hanging out at Bunkie Inferno. I don't remember which one it was—Blah or Bebo—one of them seemed pretty good. But like every business, there were some problems. People were coming, but we were getting hacked, or I don't remember what the problem was. Yeah, it was like kind of good, kind of bad. I was like, "Dude, just figure it out." Part of me thought, "Oh, Sean's at this great place where he can do anything. He makes money and has an unlimited budget." I actually think that hurt a lot of times. It would have been a little bit better if it was like, "Look, if you don't figure this out, you're fucked. You're broke."

Shaan Puri

Right, yeah, exactly. I think you called it for what it was really early on. You were like, "Dude, I think having everything..." Right? We had like a **private chef**, we had the **dopest office**, we had all the engineers we needed, and we had unlimited funding and runway. We could just keep going. You were like, "Dude, it's gonna make you soft. Don't you know having all this stuff is not good for you?" I remember you pointing that out really early on. Then also, you said, "Just pick one of these and stick to it. Don't get distracted by having a lab or a studio where you have all these different things going on. You're just dividing up your attention: 20% here, 30% here, 10% here. What if you just put 120% into one and you just found a way?" I remember you saying that stuff.

Sam Parr

but it seems really fun

Shaan Puri

it is

Sam Parr

Fun! When it works, it's like, "Oh wow, it worked!" and it's fun. That's what I'm seeing when I... I mean, I don't know these guys, but from an outside perspective, and I'm sure it sucks on the inside just like everything else has pros and cons, it seems quite fun. It seems really exciting to be able to win big and have multiple shots on target. It seems really interesting. So, one thing, by the way...

Shaan Puri

One thing I think Atomic did well is that they changed the model. So, I told him about these problems, and he was like, "Yeah, we're going to do it differently." He said, "We're going to only do one project at a time. That team is do or die on that project because they have 9 months to raise their Series A. If they can't raise their Series A in 9 months, they're out. You're out of a job." He mentioned that, in reality, they would keep the good people and offer them a job on the next project, but it's not a given that, "Oh, if this doesn't work, no problem. Just work on this other thing that we're doing." He emphasized that this approach would create urgency and focus. They wouldn't split their time between different projects. He said, "I'm going to be the CEO of the project that we're doing." The other big thing was that they weren't going after consumer products like we were. We were doing consumer and social apps, which have lower odds of hitting the lottery. He pointed out that "consumer's super hard. It's just really hard because consumers are fickle." So, they decided to focus solely on B2B. For a long time, they only did B2B stuff, and HIMSS was the one kind of consumer hit they had. The other things that have done okay are B2B companies, which I think is a smarter model. eFounders is a great example of one that’s working in Europe. They only do SaaS and really focus on problems they know exist in the B2B space because their own companies have this problem. Then, they build a product for that and create a company out of it. They've had big hits like Front come out of that and different things like that.

Sam Parr

Well, Rocket Internet does it as well. They have tens of billions of dollars with the value that they've created. But the best example of this, my favorite actually, and I just realized this as we were talking, is Kevin Ryan. Kevin Ryan is someone who I admire. I joke that we kind of look alike; he's probably 30 years older than me, but I tease that we look similar. He was the 20th employee at, I forget what it was called, but it was DoubleClick. It was sold to Google for multibillions and eventually became Google AdWords and AdSense. He told me that he made around $20 million when he sold it, which is definitely a significant amount of money. Using that, he and a guy named Dwight would invest $300,000 and give a company six months to show traction. The outcome of their companies includes a couple of losers and a couple of winners. There are probably a lot more losers than winners, but the first one is MongoDB, which is currently publicly traded at a $21 billion valuation. The second one is Business Insider, which was probably sold for $500 million and is likely worth a lot more now. The third one is Zola, which, prior to the pandemic, was doing hundreds of millions of dollars in sales. I think there are like four or five more that have been hits.

Shaan Puri

right

Sam Parr

And he told me, I actually called him and I emailed him like every month for about three years to try and get him to talk to me. Eventually, he let me fly out there and meet with him. He told me that all he does, along with Dwight, is come up with an idea. I mean, they're wealthy, right? So they can do this. They just get a piece of paper and a pencil, write out the math, and they're like, "Oh, that's kind of interesting. Alright, let's try to find someone to do it, and we'll give them $300K to do it." Now, this sounds like a very simple process, and it might be simple, but it's still quite hard to pull off. But they've done it, and it's called **Silicon Alley Insider**. You'll have to look this guy up; it's really interesting.

Shaan Puri

I think that's jason calacanis' thing that's not that's not those guys

Sam Parr

no it's it's they have the same name

Shaan Puri

oh okay interesting

Sam Parr

It's called... wait, is it called Silicon Alley Insider? No, sorry, you're right. It's called Ali Corp.

Shaan Puri

so so I think there's a

Sam Parr

business insider was called silicon alley insider

Shaan Puri

Interesting. So, I think there are just like a million accelerators in the world. Every college has one, and every little city has one. Then you have Y Combinator that just kicks ass, you know? So, Y Combinator.

Sam Parr

is the

Shaan Puri

best

Sam Parr

sorry to interrupt guilt guilt guilt is the other one that he started

Shaan Puri

right

Sam Parr

go ahead

Shaan Puri

That's a bunch of hits. So basically, it's not about whether this model is good or bad; it's about how you execute it and who the people involved are. Y Combinator is an accelerator that has probably created, you know, I don't know, $100 billion worth of value now out of the companies that have come out of it. Easily over $100 billion, actually. Airbnb alone is worth $100 billion. So, Y Combinator is like the best. Then you have Techstars, and then you have all these other accelerators that have never had a hit. So, is our accelerator model good or bad? If you said it was bad, you'd be wrong because Y Combinator is a hit. But if you said it's just great and you can repeatedly make success using this model, no, that's not true. I think the same is true for studios. Everyone is different because you have to make a bunch of choices. It's like, for example, are you going to do multiple ideas at once, or are you going to do one at a time? Are you going to have shared staff working across projects, or are you going to have staff dedicated to one project, and they live and die with that one? Are you going to fund it indefinitely, or are you going to give it a 6-month or 9-month time frame?

Shaan Puri

To get some traction and raise money from external investors, are you just going to let it run forever? Do you come up with the ideas, or do you invite in founders? They spend some time coming up with the idea, like EIR [Entrepreneur in Residence]. There are all these different differences, and all these little choices that will lead to a totally different outcome. It sounds like, in that case, they come up with the ideas and then they find an operator. In Jack's case, he came up with ideas and he was the initial operator, and then he hires a CEO. In Xpla's case, they bring in an operator, and the operator comes up with the idea. So, there are all these different versions of it. A lot of it just depends on both luck as well as who's involved. Truly great entrepreneurs and investors can have success where someone else copying the same model won't be able to pull it off because they don't have the right judgment. That's why I think I failed. I think I didn't have the same judgment that these guys who have had success with their model had. I think they were better at playing that game than I was.

Sam Parr

It also helps to be wealthy, I think, and be able to write $10,000 to $300,000 checks and have the time to do it. So, I don't want to dismiss that.

Shaan Puri

But a lot of them raised money. Like Jack, he raised money—he raised, I don't know, like **$100,000,000** or something from Andreessen Horowitz and others to fund his lab. Even though he himself was doing super well, he had sold a company to eBay. He was crushing it at PayPal or whatever. He sold his company for **$75,000,000** when he was 24.

Sam Parr

I'm not dismissing any of their skill. I'm just saying this is definitely like an after you get your hit, it's a lot of... I'm not dismissing that at all. It's like, it's a lot easier to become a good golfer if you have some money to afford fancy clubs and a membership.

Shaan Puri

And there's a bunch of people trying to do this who don't have that. There's a group, this guy Bobby, he listens to podcasts. He's doing this for creators. He's like, "Alright, we're gonna make a studio. We're gonna just build products for the creator economy." I don't think they have a big track record or anything like that, but that's their focus. They're trying to do a studio for that. Oh, I'm...

Sam Parr

gonna assume it's impossible

Shaan Puri

I know another group of guys. There's another group of guys that I would bet on. The main guy is this guy, Kumar, and you should follow him on Twitter. He's amazing and super interesting on Twitter and Facebook. His handle is **@DataRage**.

Sam Parr

I know him I know who he is

Shaan Puri

and he's just like really into all these alternatives

Sam Parr

he's a weird guy

Shaan Puri

Yeah, he's a weird dude, but he's really sharp and he's a different type of thinker. He's really into the energy industry, and he'll build little products for that sector that you didn't even know there was a need for. I think this guy's going to do well because he knows how to sniff out some money. He's looking at problems that the average engineer in Silicon Valley, New York, or LA doesn't even know exist. For example, his friend is a lawyer, and there are all these little rule changes in local regulations or laws. He just made an alert system that notifies you whenever a rule changes. He can get a bunch of lawyers to sign up for these email alerts, creating a SaaS business that can do well. Also, consider energy prices when they rise and fall. How are you going to track that? How do you build a database of that information? He's got all these really random ideas that I think the average entrepreneur doesn't even know about. They don't understand those markets enough to recognize those problems, and therefore, he finds untapped opportunities.

Sam Parr

Well, I think we should dive deep on this sometime, even more. I want to get Jack on here, and I would love to get Kevin Ryan on here because this sounds cool. It definitely sounds like a rich guy's playground, and frankly, I want to do it.