The Story Of Death Row Records Co-Founder Harry-O (#421)

Sam Parr

You told me that by age 26, you had 11 different businesses. You said that around your early or mid-twenties, you were producing Broadway shows and that you were in the mix at a very early age. How did that come to be, and what were those 11 businesses? Alright, man, we're live. We always just kind of hop into things. But on the pod today, we have Michael Harris. Do you like to go by Harry O or Michael? What do you prefer?

Michael Harris

Well, people call me, you know, people that know me by Harry. Or call me Harry, call me O, or Michael. Whatever works.

Sam Parr

So, I'll kind of set this up. Basically, I'll tell you that I've read a lot about you and a lot of the work that you've done. The way that we got connected was through a mutual friend named Chris, who has this initiative called "The Last Mile." It helps people when they get out of prison to find jobs at tech companies. He's been bragging about you because I told him, "You can't see it now because I redecorated, but on my wall, I used to have a picture of Tupac, Dre, and Eazy-E." I loved N.W.A. and the rebellious culture of people who created cool stuff. He goes, "Hey, you know, I know the guy who is part, you know, part brains behind all that." I was like, "What?" He said your name, and I go, "Oh, I've read all about him." He replied, "Well, he's my buddy."

Michael Harris

and so that's kinda how that's kinda

Sam Parr

How we got connected... So, I thought today we could talk a little bit about your story so people can learn about you. But then also, we could discuss business and the experiences you went through. So, where are you from?

Michael Harris

los angeles I'm from the east side of los angeles california

Sam Parr

But you told me that by age 26, you had 11 different businesses. You said that around your early or mid-twenties, you were producing Broadway shows and that you were in the mix at a very early age. How did that kind of come to be, and what were those 11 businesses?

Michael Harris

well I used to be I used I used to own a limousine first business I

Michael Harris

I had a limousine service that was quite profitable. I also had a construction company, production companies, music companies, beauty salons, and real estate investment companies. I was just kind of all over the place. Additionally, I produced not just concerts and plays, but I also supported clubs in the city as a child.

Sam Parr

how big was the the the limo business

Michael Harris

I had about 30 cars, and they were luxury limousines. They were ultra-scratch at the time. It was pretty impressive, this style of car that we had. Yes.

Sam Parr

what type of monthly revenue can a limo business make

Michael Harris

Man, it depends. I stay pretty booked. I spend a lot of time advertising, so a lot of times I would have, beyond the cars that I possess, people calling me. Many of the services surrounding me didn't have business, so I would form them out. I would provide opportunities for the other car services that didn't advertise as much as I did. For example, maybe somebody needed 100 cars but only had 30. I could provide them with 100 because I would parlay it out to what they call "form out" to the other companies, which you get 50% of the service that is conducted.

Sam Parr

I gotta fill out the

Michael Harris

Right, right. But you actually get half. You get half of what it is because you're the one who initiated the sale.

Sam Parr

what how old were you and how old were you when you had a limo company that had 30 30 cars

Michael Harris

I probably maybe 23 years old

Sam Parr

how on earth does that happen what age did you start working

Michael Harris

well I you know as a youngster I started working I used to work at I mean likely places to learn business structure when I was a kid I mean like until my like before I even went to junior high school I worked at a shoeshine parlor and and and that that shoeshine parlor it was in my neighborhood but it was 2 shoeshine parlors there's 1 on 1 end of the corner and one was on the other end of the corner what I was able to learn from that experience as a 12 13 year old kid 11 12 13 year old kid is competition and how business was ran and and these 2 guys competed with each other but they also hired you know kids from the neighborhood to work at these shushan parlors and we competed with each other and so I learned a lot about business from that practice and that process but I also learned I used to listen a lot you know a lot of people come in different from different walks of life it could be preachers and business owners people from the street and you would just you know while you're shining your shoes you're listening at a young age and you're hearing different hearing about different opportunities and how people approach business differently and so I was always like a sponge at a young age but you know friends and I also learned how to never judge a book by its cover like sometimes a guy might pull up and and be in a nice car and and you're you're like people is you know trying to get that customer and this guy comes in may may only have 1 or 2 pair of shoes and may not even be a tipper but then a guy pulls up in a station wagon or a regular car and he might have 30 cars in it you know 30 shoes in it and also it's a big tipper so it's just this learning how to read people and you know just the whole competitive thing that was amongst us as you used to compete in you know be at our best be dressed you know represent and and you know honing in on our skill so I try to learn some from everything I always did as a kid like how do I use this moving forward you know what is it what's the lesson you know learned here you know so that was that was and my mother also owned a restaurant in the neighborhood and I watched how she navigated that and how she would how she handled her customers and how she worked with her staff and you know I actually remember before she bought that business when she used to work for the people that she bought it from how she you know raised up rose up in that in in terms of management and then acquired that business and so just watching people be effective in business at a young age had a profound effect on me

Sam Parr

And you end up kind of getting in trouble, which I'll let you tell a story about in your twenties. But before that, how big was your empire in terms of employees at its peak?

Michael Harris

I probably had about a 150 employees

Sam Parr

and can you reveal like how much revenue like this whole the the whole empire was bringing in

Michael Harris

Well, it was me. I was making **$1,000,000**. I mean, you know, it's **35** or **36** years ago, so I don't remember the exact details.

Sam Parr

I mean that builds up though what do you what did you do with your money

Michael Harris

like I always invested in in real estate

Sam Parr

In real estate, you're not dealing with public equities. You liked real estate, and you're buying real estate in your neighborhood.

Michael Harris

Yeah, well... all over. Any way I could find a deal, not to buy, you know, like rehab properties as well as luxury properties and business outlets. I would purchase it.

Sam Parr

how many did you own how many how many buildings

Michael Harris

probably 30 or 40 buildings

Sam Parr

damn you still own them

Michael Harris

yeah I own what I own it's been a long time brother it's been a

Sam Parr

Long time adds up. That adds up. I just started purchasing some stuff about three years ago, and I'm like, if I just get one or two every single year, I mean, these definitely add up. And you bought at a good time, I bet.

Michael Harris

oh yeah it was

Michael Harris

It was, you know, I was in a position about different types of properties that came into my preview.

Sam Parr

But the thing that you're most famous for is the entertainment stuff. When did you... what led you to entertainment? Was it the plays at first?

Michael Harris

no 1 of 1 of my first well I said limousine was one of

Michael Harris

My first major business was when I opened a studio in that building I was telling you about, located on 54th and Crenshaw. I created a company called **The Jingle Factory**. What I would do is make commercials for local businesses, collaborating with local radio stations like KJLH and KACE. This experience brought me around musicians. I would have people sing hooks and create certain melodies to match the aesthetic of different businesses. A lot of producers and singers would come into the studio, and I kind of drifted off into that world. I started managing groups and working with different record labels and production companies. At the same time, as my limousine business was growing, I worked with many production companies as well, and artists would use my services. Being in that circle connected me to the music industry, and for various reasons, I got involved in the music business.

Sam Parr

Was there anyone that I would know of that you started working with really early on, around that time at the... was it called the Jingle Factory?

Michael Harris

Yeah, the Jingle Factory was commercial-based. We did commercials in the city. So basically, that was it. I did my own jingles for my own limousine service as well. So, no, that was non-celebrity; that was just commercial. But at the same time, I started working with Motown. I started working with Motown when it was pretty hot in the city, so I was working with them behind the scenes a lot.

Sam Parr

and then how did that kinda go into the production companies

Michael Harris

Well, I created a production called **"Why Not Production."** I just felt like during that time, it was hard for people that looked like me to really get a stronghold in the city. So, I decided to create my own production company. I would be available to help produce artists who didn't have the financial means to do it themselves. Then, somebody brought me a play opportunity. I had never been involved in plays until that moment, and I thought it was a real creative space for people who were in the movie business but didn't have work at the time. They could hone in on their craft and also provide entertainment in the community. A lot of people may not have been used to experiencing plays, so that gave me an opportunity to bring that kind of entertainment to my community. It was very exciting, and I got to meet some pretty heavy hitters.

Sam Parr

like him

Michael Harris

I met Denzel during that opportunity. I met Paul Winfield, Vanessa Williams, Richard Lawson, Ruby Dee, and Al Freeman. I could just go on and list a number of people who worked with me on this production. I worked with a guy named Woody King, who's out of New York, who's the director. Ron Milner happened to be the author of this particular play called *Checkmate*. I was able to take it to various cities and ultimately got it to Broadway with the Nederlanders on 46th and Broadway. However, my life came crashing down right before we actually launched on Broadway. We were on Broadway, but I didn't get to market and promote it the way I normally do. I like to market and promote the projects that I'm involved with.

Sam Parr

And so, what does that mean? You know, someone came to you and they go, "Hey man, I got this idea for this play. Here's my vision, yada yada yada. Here's what I think could be the outcome." And you're like, "Alright, cool. I'll put up $100K. I'm half owner, and I'll help make connections." You're going to do a lot of the day-to-day work. I'll oversee and I'll make some connections. Or were you more hands-on? Like, what's that look like?

Michael Harris

Okay, like when you talk about my investments, it's consistent. I would like to come into the management aspect of it. What that does, though, is help me understand the business. I may have management skills, but I may not have insight into that particular business. So part of that relationship, the merging of that relationship, is that you need to teach me everything you know about what you do. Then I can compile that with my management skills, and we could move on to the next level. That was part of what I would do. I would come in and decide if this is something I want to invest in, and I would become the managing partner. But also, I want to learn everything that everybody here knows so that I can be effective in that position. That's usually the role I always took.

Sam Parr

what's it like working with and and by the way at this. You're still in your twenties

Michael Harris

yes

Sam Parr

And you were working with some up-and-coming people, but you were definitely probably working with some established people. What did they think about this guy? They said this... I mean, you got this tough guy persona now. I bet you had that same persona back then. You know, you can be intimidating. I imagine they're like, "Well..."

Michael Harris

I don't know about no tough guy well you're getting there

Sam Parr

I'm saying that's my opinion. If I had to do business with you, I'd be like, "Man, I don't want to make this guy mad." So if you're in your twenties and you're thinking, "Oh, this young Black guy from [insert location] is talking about living in LA now. He's wanting to be out here in New York putting on these plays." Like, who does this guy think he is?

Michael Harris

like where where up where did you deal with a bunch

Sam Parr

of that

Michael Harris

Like I always respect other people's territory, you know, no matter what business you're in. I always deal with people respectfully. There may be a persona and a perception of me, and then there's the reality of me. The reality is that I always was straight up. There may be tension or consideration before they get to know me, but once they do, they realize, "Oh, this guy's straight up, 100%. He just keeps it real." I think that later on, when the defrost stuff happened, people conflate everybody's attitude as one. We all are different. We all came from different vantage points to help create that. Sometimes, people don't pull back and ask, "Who are the individuals that were a part of that entity?" That brings about a different perception once people get to know who you are. I come from a pretty tough neighborhood. I won't argue that. You had to be pretty strong to survive it, especially with certain businesses I was in as a youth. A lot of things I did in my younger years I'm not really proud of, especially now after being away for 33 years. Going through that experience and reflecting back on my quick rises and heavy falls, I always try to stay positive and see what that journey had to offer.

Sam Parr

So, you said the play didn't work out because your life came crashing down. What does that mean?

Michael Harris

Right when we went through the pre-Broadway and got ready to open full scale, I was arrested and sent to prison.

Sam Parr

what were the charges

Michael Harris

I was I

Michael Harris

I was arrested for attempted murder and later for drug conspiracy. I was exonerated after 23 years, but you know, I knew I was innocent. I think that made me take it lightly. I didn't really... I kept working while I was out on bail, not thinking that the results that happened would happen. I thought I would be vindicated, and life was upside down.

Sam Parr

what were were you guilty of the drug charges

Michael Harris

Yeah, I used to be involved in drugs. Even though I had gotten out of the drug business, you know, you get pulled back in based on some previous phone calls. I had gotten out, but still, you know, they call that karma. You have to pay the piper.

Sam Parr

And when I... when you Google your name, one of the first things that comes up is this interview. Did I forget the publication? But the article said at one point, "You're doing something, I think it said, close to $1,000,000 a day in drug sales." Is that true?

Michael Harris

I think it said 2

Sam Parr

was it 2,000,000 a day

Michael Harris

yeah I think it said 2 I'm not proud of that

Sam Parr

so what what's the story of that

Michael Harris

it was hard work I mean you know I mean the thing is even

Sam Parr

though coke I guess

Michael Harris

Yes, it was cocaine. I think that, like I was saying before, whenever I put myself to good, bad, or indifferent, it was like I put myself to it, you know? Only after watching the repercussions throughout my community and communities across the country did I realize that what was making me rich was also making me poor in spirit and in culture. I was helping to destroy my own community. So, I don't really take a lot of joy in talking about the amount of money I made in that business, even though I was engaged and pretty focused in that business when I was young and misguided in that venture. But I had a lot of time to reflect.

Sam Parr

And I bet that's confusing because whenever I start something and it starts working out, I get... it's like a dopamine rush. You know, just seeing the sales come in. I mean, it's exciting. In your case, even though people were getting hurt, it's definitely exhilarating and exciting. Even if you're using the money to invest in cool stuff that helps your community, it still hurts people. It's still exciting. I mean, I bet that's still an exhilarating, adventurous life.

Michael Harris

And you gotta understand, sir, at a young age, you know, this... you gotta see it's gotta put everything in its proper context. Growing up, people were selling weed. You know, there’s no harm. It’s like, and then this thing is introduced to the community, and it’s just the next level from selling marijuana or whatever it is. The next day, you know, you're involved, and all you see is the dollars. You know what you're making, the transactions. Everybody was smoking weed. The next day, you get up, you go to work, you do what you do. You don’t really know; you had no previous insight on what this could become. So it’s just like, okay, this person is buying it, you’re selling it, it’s in your community, it’s available. That’s it. That’s all you see. Then, when you see later on that this is not like marijuana, this is something else, and it’s changing the whole makeup of the community. You know, people are just not themselves anymore. Now it’s like, "Whoa!" You know, especially if you’re a conscious person and you were raised in a good family setting. Now you’re out here hustling, and you’re hustling in a way that other people have become vulnerable to this particular drug, which I never used. So I didn’t know what it felt like, but there are people that I cared about. Later, I would see them fall victim to it. And you know, that’s that karma I’m talking about. It comes back to you. You know, it’s like, "Wow, this is what I’m doing." So yeah, I made a lot of money. It was exciting. It was the adventures; it was enterprising. But then it also had that side that you can’t ignore.

Sam Parr

And then you got, what was your sentence? 33 years? And that was mostly for the attempted murder, or the... no?

Michael Harris

That was not my sentence. I had a 25-year life sentence, and on top of that, I had a 20-year sentence with the federal government.

Sam Parr

damn what's that feel like hearing that

Michael Harris

It's unbelievable, but it's real. I mean, the criminal system is real. A lot of people, I think, have conversations like the one we’re having, and those should be had more often. People just see the glitz and glamour of a particular lifestyle. The fact is, many of us have very little patience because some of us live in conditions that are unbearable. You just want to get out, however you can. You don't realize that the patience you need, that you can exercise and should exercise, could save you a lifetime of misery. In hindsight, you can see things in reverse. I believe I should be a conduit for that. I believe I should be able to talk to people who are poised to make some of the same useful mistakes that I made, thinking that it’s going to solve the problem when it actually creates multiple problems. It affects your family and your community in ways that you can't even imagine.

Sam Parr

When you were... so you started on death row? I want to hear about that while in prison after you...

Michael Harris

went in yes

Sam Parr

how on earth does that work

Michael Harris

well you know I'm I'm enterprising

Michael Harris

what do you want me to tell you I mean what do you want me to say

Michael Harris

what do you want

Michael Harris

me to say

Sam Parr

Well, what's it... I mean, when you're just sitting there, you have a visitor, or you're writing letters, or doing phone calls, and someone comes to you and says, "Hey man, you wanna start a record label?" I mean...

Michael Harris

I don't even know I mean how long

Sam Parr

Were you in there before you kind of got this idea? Or how did that happen?

Michael Harris

Well, I told you I was involved in different aspects of the entertainment business already, so it's kind of like I was already bitten by the bug. What happened was... I don't know if I should tell you this part. Maybe you should wait until the movie comes out, but maybe you already heard some aspects of this. It's just, you know, I still had all this energy inside of me that I wanted to do something. I didn't want my sentence to be the end of me. I just couldn't stop. You know, I'm the kind of guy that only slept 3 hours a day and, like I said, ran 11 businesses. How do you go to prison and sit there and be okay with that? It's just not what it is. So, you're always trying to find something outside of your environment that allows you to stay alive in spite of your circumstances and the sentence that has been imposed. You know, you're still youthful, and you still want to have an impact. Because, like I say, when you deal with the totality of a person and you see that there was more good than bad in that person, that's what you're trying to get back to. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes I could say I'm just trying to find a cool place in hell for all the bad things that I did, you know? Praying that God could forgive me for that, and at the same time, being able to give something back to my community that they can use instead of something they shouldn't use.

Sam Parr

So, what's that creation story look like? Who contacted whom? I mean, I told you I read... which book? "Ruthless"? Is that what the book's called? "Ruthless"? Is that by Jerry Heller? So, I have that.

Michael Harris

yeah so rufus was before death row right

Sam Parr

right right

Michael Harris

Right, so Death Row is the, if you will, the next iteration of Ruthless. One of the main components of Ruthless was Dr. Dre. Dr. Dre was the producer of the music that was mostly produced by N.W.A. Most of the music that was released by N.W.A. was produced by Dr. Dre. N.W.A. was a group, and Dr. Dre was a part of that, but he also was the engine that made it run. I don't think that Eazy-E (rest in peace) and Jerry Heller (also deceased) understood Dre's value to the group, which shouldn't have been overlooked. This oversight opened up an opportunity for him to be disgruntled. Suge Knight, who actually began to manage Dr. Dre after managing an artist by the name of Doc, introduced Suge to Dr. Dre. I was introduced to Suge shortly after, and that's how that relationship came about. He was managing Dr. Dre and Doc, and we created a company. First, we created Godfather Entertainment, and then out of that, Death Row was birthed.

Sam Parr

then it was who came up with that name

Michael Harris

I came up with **Godfather Entertainment** based on my situation. You know, I was actually housed on death row.

Sam Parr

in saint quentin

Michael Harris

Yeah, Saint Quentin. I wasn't sentenced to death row; I was housed there for a short period of time. I was able to witness young people, younger than myself at the time, being sentenced to death row. I was profoundly affected by that. You hear different versions of the name because it used to be called "deaf row" (D-E-F row), and then we decided to call it "death row." That's the company I set up: Death Row Records.

Sam Parr

and you had you guys kenny

Michael Harris

I worked with my attorney at the time, who was assisting me with my appeal. David Kenner was also part of that partnership that helped assemble that company for me while I was behind bars.

Sam Parr

And you guys, I mean, you didn't necessarily shape the genre; you created it a little bit. You know, you had Pac, Snoop... who else was on there?

Michael Harris

I mean, it's... people don't realize that Death Row didn't have a large roster; it just had an effective one. Also, my ex-wife Lydia was a part of the management team that helped facilitate the company in the beginning. To answer your question, it's like the moment the world heard Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre's voices together, it was a game changer. You know, Warren G was a part of a group with Snoop, 213, and his relationship with Dr. Dre facilitated Snoop Dogg coming into the fold. Doc worked with Snoop and helped him up his game in the rap industry. Dr. Dre was looking to create another star, and that relationship forced together just made magic. But there were other members, other producers, and other artists on the label, like Ray J and Juul, the Dog Pound. There was just a lot of synergy there. They all came from different walks of life, and it was just that time. Some things are just about timing. The energy pot came later, but he brought some of that fire with him too. It just put Death Row in the history books like no other label. A lot of people don't really understand that Death Row was like the little choo-choo train that connected dots to so many different companies that a lot of people don't even realize.

Sam Parr

like what

Michael Harris

I mean, from universal to increasing their distribution because of his relationship with Death Row, Interscope, and Warner Brothers, almost getting out of the music business due to the way they mishandled their relationship with Death Row and Interscope. I'm just saying, there are so many different aspects to Death Row's existence that most people don't even ponder. They're too busy with the negative side and the drama that some of the people involved participated in. But they don't think about the enterprising nature of that organization, which is what my focus is. It's like, what was its original intent and what did it do in the business world that most people don't talk about? The narrative has been focused and moved to a narrow perspective, and hopefully, I'll be able to expand that. You know, me and Snoop Dogg are working together. Snoop Dogg and I acquired Death Row, and we're partners. I'm the COO of the new Death Row that I helped create 37 years ago, so it's exciting to see how that turned out.

Sam Parr

What's crazy is you've been around all these people, and you actually saw them when they were young. You talked about all these interesting people: Denzel, Dre, Snoop. What do you think some of these young guys have in common? They're not just successful business people; they're culture-changing people. They changed America. They changed the world. What attributes do you think they have in common?

Michael Harris

you know what

Sam Parr

I'm saying

Michael Harris

Well, it's just backing up... like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now. He still is consistent in his character. You know, there are certain roles he won't play. It's the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project, *Checkmate*, in the first place. He was always a consummate professional. You know, he didn't really hang out; he just did what he did and took off. But I just watched him and I observed his work ethic and his projection in the films that he does for people that look like myself. We're proud. You know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud, and there's not enough of that in our culture—to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft. He's a strong, focused, intriguing individual. You know, instead of, like, you used the word *intimidating* towards me earlier. Sometimes that can be off-putting for people, and it kills opportunity because people see the book... Remember my earlier point about judging a book by its cover and not really taking the time to connect with that individual? But Denzel has been really great with that, with the roles that he's played. So, it's my honor and pleasure to have known him then and to know him now. He's a consummate professional even today. He's always thinking about his thoughts when he does a particular project. *N.W.A.* and *Death Row* is different now. It had this...

Sam Parr

And by the way, when I said "intimidating," in part I meant I'm intimidated because you've got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, "If you ever say something that you don't want in the pod, just let me know," and you said, "I don't say things I don't mean to say." You've just got this Clint Eastwood vibe. I'm like, you've got this coolness about you that is intimidating, is what I meant. And I'm intimidated by your success.

Michael Harris

Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because you know, I'm glad you said that. I appreciate that aspect of it. I just think about my thoughts, and that's why I don't worry. I appreciate you saying that to me early on. But I'm usually conscious, and if I say it, I meant to say it, you know?

Sam Parr

That's what I mean. You're very intentional, and that can be intimidating to people. When I get nervous, if there's silence or I'm feeling anxious, I'll say things that I don't even mean to say. You know what I mean? Yeah, you don't seem to have that attribute.

Michael Harris

well I haven't been in some pretty sticky situations and

Michael Harris

You guys say what you mean and mean what you say. It could turn out really ugly, you know, if you don't.

Michael Harris

If you don't understand your surroundings, you know you gotta speak to your audience. Whatever that audience may be, in real life, I mean in life every day, or just in this type of setting. You never know who could benefit from our conversation today or hesitate on something they're about to do and say, "Hey, you know what? That's some wisdom there. Let me connect to that." Here's a person that has been through it and experienced it on different levels, and he might have something to say. So, thinking about it, I'm considering setting up a podcast. You know, you're talking about success. I'm trying to be in your rearview mirror for a second, you know what I mean?

Sam Parr

I have a feeling you're gonna only be in the rear view mirror for

Michael Harris

a second

Sam Parr

but what were you saying about and I

Michael Harris

think you said nwa I forget who you said

Michael Harris

you're talking about some of the artists they were they were different in a in a way that they provided an opportunity for us to speak now some people don't like what we said but it was different you know it was like you had a certain box that you know black americans and and not just black american hispanics you know different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a you know a box and so you don't really get to hear them but through this mechanism called music called hip hop called rap called some people call it a gangster rap you know I just called it reality rap you know whatever that reality was in us community being able to speak to it you know what I'm saying like becoming your own cnn or or fox news you know you can say this is what's happening good bad or indifference but this is what's happening in our community and they were able to communicate that and so my intention was to elevate but at the same time this thing takes on a life of its own and so and then you get involved in then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it so later it was altered but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut you know so you people were getting mirroring in to a community that they knew a little about and so that in that aspect the the rappers the the music business was able to shed shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn't been shedded and especially when it came to police brutality you know a lot of the injustice that was taking place in those communities it just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in you know do lyrics that normally you wouldn't even have access at doing so

Sam Parr

What's the first song that you heard that you thought, "Oh, Death Row! This, I'm onto something"?

Michael Harris

well it it's it's it's like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out so it wasn't I mean I I got to hear the whole album the chronic before it came out and so but the first when I heard the first song that was done on deep cover soundtrack the single that snoop and dre did and I was in prison and a lot of guys were like they they weren't really paying attention to them really until that happened yet because it was nwa and other groups that was out at the time and so mca all these guys that were out you know and then we had other local artists taly t and miss max the spade and ice t and all these different guys with you know they sold korea as well but once they heard that song on the radio 187 on the undercover cop and they heard that melodic sound come from snoop and those pump pumping beats from dre it was game over it was game over you know and I was like wow you know because you know I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they they didn't wanna hear it then once there's and I got a line around the corner they wanna hear the tape now and then it's been like that ever since you know and I watched I was able to you know watch dre and and snoop and them perform at the super bowl and I was able to attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent type of setting with rufus and nwa and death row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today so they were

Sam Parr

was it was it mostly on tapes or cd it was tapes still when it when it first started

Michael Harris

yes tapes they they they went to cds yeah

Sam Parr

How much was the cassette back then? So, "The Chronic" came out in '92. What year did you go away?

Michael Harris

I went away in 88

Sam Parr

Okay, so you're in there for 4 years. By the time "The Chronic" comes out, how much is a cassette back then? You think CDs in the late nineties were like $18. What's it... you remember?

Michael Harris

18 to $23. Yeah, so you're talking about $9 for a cassette, something like that. And then the CDs, yes.

Sam Parr

I didn't realize how fast this happened. So, I'm looking at Death Row's work. The first album was *The Chronic*, right? That sold like 3,000,000 copies pretty quickly. Then it was *Doggy Style* with Snoop, which sold close to 7,000,000 copies, like, pretty fast.

Michael Harris

yes

Sam Parr

Then it's "All Eyes on Me" by Tupac. And then another Tupac song. I mean, I didn't realize how fast you came out of the gate. Yeah.

Michael Harris

It changed the game. I mean, all of a sudden, it made people go crazy too. You know, like money just makes you a bigger version of who you are. So, a lot of things changed, you know.

Sam Parr

So, you're on a $10 cassette tape. How much does Death Row get? Like 30 or 40%? That's $3 or $4 on $10.

Michael Harris

yeah that's about that's about right man it's not bad

Sam Parr

damn man so I mean what's it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you're not able to enjoy it

Michael Harris

it'd been better if I was on the streets I'd tell you that but at the same time it was good to see legal activity taking place to make that kind of money I come from where I was some people not that you had to but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get and to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people that's what I kinda locked into like we we can go legit you know and and basically figuring out creative ways they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that that could capture the masses and I just thought that was such a creative even now when I when I'm around snoop and I see him do things so effortlessly like he just it's just like it's nothing to him you know it's like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago like he just composed it seconds ago and even being around doctor dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team you know conduct full orchestras it's like what happened here you know like and they still are coming with music and they're still working with young people and they're still open and it's like it's no like I hear no I'm done I hear none of that it's just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just you know being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did and and me and stupas more than most are pretty connected when it come to that

Sam Parr

You guys took off right out the gate with that throw, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only a handful of years.

Michael Harris

well it's back to management again you know

Sam Parr

yeah what would you what what would you have done differently managing and was suge was suge a good manager

Michael Harris

Well, I just want to say this about Suge. You know, I think Suge was really creative. He was in the right place at the right time, and he was able to connect with the right people. In the beginning, Suge could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs had he not imploded. I know him, you know what I mean? I used to sit with him and talk with him, so I know the side of Suge that most people don't know. We considered ourselves brothers at one time; it was a close bond. To see him unravel and pull away from the opportunities that were surrounding him is just a tragedy. I know a different Suge. But yeah, it went away for a little while, but it's back, right? It's back and it's strong. People are looking at it differently now. I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that's wasted energy. We all did what we did, and sometimes I could be wrong about certain things, and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It's just how you deal with the present. Can Death Row be seen differently by the new generation? We're about to find out.

Sam Parr

At my last company, I started when I was about 25 years old. We grew to have dozens of employees, and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, or 25. I was the adult in the room. I don't drink, I don't party, and I don't do any drugs; I'm completely sober. However, a lot of my people would. It was a creative business, and whenever they would start drinking, I would always have to put someone in charge. I'd say, "Hey, I gotta get out of here. I don't want to be around this." Managing young people, particularly in a party environment and especially creatives, is a challenge. You have to give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. From an outside perspective, you dealt with that times ten. They weren't just drinking and making bad decisions at the bar; some, you know, Snoop got in trouble for some worse stuff that was happening. All those guys had issues. What's that like, managing creative, wild guys?

Michael Harris

Well, you know, it's called "putting out the fires." But, as you spoke about Snoopy, he was exonerated for that case too.

Sam Parr

Yeah, and I'm not saying he did anything. I'm just saying that's hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be in a circle of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not.

Michael Harris

What, what, what? In that particular context, in music or any creative field, I just think that you have to take people where they are. You know, what happens is if you take away something, it takes away something else. We all get to elevate in life. So, who you were, what you came from, and the condition that you were conditioned to see the world—all of that had something to do with the way that music was made. I'm not justifying behavior of any kind; I'm just saying that you start where you start. If you look at what you're talking about regarding some of the conduct that different individuals participated in early on, and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They have charities, they have foundations, and they help, motivate, and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, that role was all of that, and that's what made it exciting. That was the energy it possessed. But it grew; some people learned, and some people didn't. Some people went up, and some people went down. You're talking about a Shakespearean play. I mean, there is no other. A lot of people lost their lives and careers, and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So, it's just a combination of it all. You know, this story is still being told. Do you?

Sam Parr

think that that creating death row was is that the the thing you're most proud of career wise

Michael Harris

well my career is not over sir and so I

Sam Parr

so far

Michael Harris

So far, I just think that it's the most impactful, good or bad. Like I said, good or bad, I can go somewhere and, you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. You'll be surprised; people from high up in different parts of society, different classes of society, have told me that when they were in college or whatever they were doing, that music...

Sam Parr

Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to "California Love" and "Hit 'Em Up." I mean, I know all these words. I grew up in Missouri as a 12-year-old white kid. I don't relate; I mean, I don't experience what they experienced. But there was a rebellious side of me where I thought, "I wanna stick it to the man." What I loved about Pac, in particular—he's one of my heroes—is that he accomplished so much. How old was he? I think he died in September of '96. Yeah, he was 25. He was a young guy, and he had an artful side to him. You know, in those old interviews when he was 18 or 19, he talked about Jada Smith and you could see the love he had for this woman. He was being artful. Songs like "Brenda's Got a Baby" address real issues. But then he also got charged with rape, and there was the whole "Hit 'Em Up" thing with all those other guys he was fighting. What I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good. He redeemed himself. He would screw up, and then he was a rich character. I was drawn to that. I'm like, "I got flaws." You know, I had substance abuse issues, and I overcame them. I did all this stuff, and I was drawn to people who screwed up, overcame, and then maybe screwed up again, but still overcame. There was this rebellious, bold part of it, and that's why I was drawn to it, even though I can't relate to selling drugs or any of that.

Michael Harris

Well, even some of those charges, like you know, with Tupac, we're not here to defend or revisit the case. But we know that a lot of times you have to guard the people that surround you as much as you guard the food that you digest. Sometimes you could be a big name person, and other people around you could do something that you get blamed for because you're the easy victim. You know, you're the one with the big paycheck or the big name. Sometimes you suffer the consequences of the people that you allow in your circle. So it's important to always be conscious of that. A lot of times, Mia, he was rebellious. He fought back; he fought against what he was raised to be. He was conditioned to do so. But at the same time, a lot of things were put on him that really didn't have anything to do with him.

Sam Parr

but at a young age too

Michael Harris

at a

Sam Parr

At a real young age, when you have the spotlight... I mean, he was famous since he was really young. And yeah, I admire that.

Michael Harris

he was famous

Sam Parr

and talented talented

Michael Harris

He was very talented, and like you said, we are all flawed. We are just human beings. When you go back and look at the age, if you look at somebody that's 25 years old now, you might think, "Wow, this kid accomplished so much." He was able to have this type of mindset and translate that into the music. I mean, come on! Everybody that worked with him always tells me about how he was a consummate professional. You know, "Hey, we gotta push, we gotta make this happen." He was something else.

Sam Parr

And he was prolific. He had all those albums at such a young age. He was prolific, so I identified with those characters. Even though on paper there wasn't a lot that I could relate to, I admired them. I was like, "Dude, guys at young ages changing cultures."

Michael Harris

and I think I

Sam Parr

think he was that's interesting

Michael Harris

It's funny you're saying that because my thing is, I think it's infectious. I think the sound, the energy was infectious. So, you didn't have to actually come from that particular culture to really identify with it. It met you where you were and provided you with some energy that helped you do whatever you were trying to do. I think it's more about the energy that it possessed.

Sam Parr

You know, like people... you know who Gary V is? Gary Vaynerchuk, right? He's a... you know, I watch him sometimes. I get amped when I'm having a bad day. When I was younger, I would listen to "Hit 'Em Up" or something. It's like, right? You know what I'm saying? It gave me fuel to get back on track. I just love that stuff. That's why I like startups. I like people who are just nerds playing on the computer. They create Bitcoin or, you know what I'm saying? They create something that sticks it to the man. Even though they're just, you know, in Silicon Valley in an office, whereas you guys were down there writing music, it's still kind of a rebellious energy of us versus the world that I think is infectious.

Michael Harris

I think that's quite relatable. A lot of the internet tech entrepreneurs, that whole idea of creating something out of nothing, is relatable for people in the hip-hop business. You know, creating something that was meant for a particular circle that went outside the circle and affected the world. It's the same way with these young, enterprising engineers who create things that we all use, like phones and different apps. Now, that whole world is merging and trying to find its place. It's quite interesting to see how it all unfolds. A lot of big companies have been displaced because of the internet and don't know how to find their place. This situation allows for new, merging creative minds to take their place. So, I'm excited about what the future holds.

Sam Parr

I have a lot of takeaways from talking to you. I think that a lot of entrepreneurs, like myself, are really emotional. You know, like you're into the arts, and building businesses is my art. People who are sometimes artistic go up and down. I get real sad sometimes, and I get real happy. I'm not calm like you are all the time. I'm trying to work on my calmness just to be a little more steady. You’ve experienced a lot harder stuff than I have, and you have remained cool. I said it's like Clint Eastwood. So, I think you kind of inspired me to be calmer.

Michael Harris

Well, I think with me in particular, I was in a situation that was quite volatile. I had a conversation with God, and I felt that I had reached an understanding. At one point, I said, "I never go home from here, and I never live another day." Just the fact that I knew who the Creator was, and I was thankful for what God has done for us, and what we had to do to even be born, made a difference. The miracle of our birth and how important that is to live up to that is significant. You can't help but be calm once you know that each person is considered a miracle. It's just for you to live up to it.

Sam Parr

And that's another thing: you have a good attitude. You have a really good attitude. It makes me calm being around you, and I feel more optimistic. I've always been fascinated by people who are a little mysterious. There's always a little more behind that you don't even know. They always have something up their sleeve—some good story or some cool experience that they've had. I get that vibe from you, and it inspires me a little bit. I think it's cool. I also think, you know, last night the Grammys were on. They did a segment for the 50 years of hip hop, and the Ghetto Boys were on singing one of their songs. They had this one line where they go, "Real gangsters don't flex nuts because they know they got them." That's kind of how I feel about you.

Michael Harris

is when you're when you're you know when you're like the guy

Sam Parr

you don't gotta say you're the guy

Michael Harris

yeah yeah you yeah you are who you are and

Michael Harris

And trust me, when you're in situations like I've been in, you're either going to rise to the top or fall to the bottom. It's just how it is. It was weird being there and being away. Especially early on, it was very dangerous. But I come from a certain type of community, and I conducted myself a certain way. I was able to get through without a scar. Later on, I was able to be there when Chris and other people, like Chris and his wife Beverly, created programs where people could really engage and recognize real change in themselves. I've seen it go from not knowing if you're going to live the next day to having to prepare for the outside world. I'm glad Chris introduced us. Last Mile is a very progressive program that teaches people how to code while they're incarcerated and also prepares them for job opportunities when they get out in the tech world.

Sam Parr

Well, man, I appreciate you doing this. This is awesome! Do you have an Instagram? Is that where you connect with people most?

Michael Harris

Well, yeah, that was the official Hario. Did you see it? The official Hario?

Sam Parr

I think that's what it was it looked like it was you posting

Michael Harris

yeah yeah

Sam Parr

Michael "Hario" Harris, the official Hario on Instagram, has 41,000 followers. It looks like there's a picture of him on a private jet or some type of sprinter van. I don't know what he's doing, but he's smoking a vape.

Michael Harris

No, I'm not smoking a vape. It's a vapor rabbit. But yeah, you know, that's the official Instagram. I'll let you know when I set up the podcast.

Sam Parr

I could talk to you all day

Michael Harris

yeah absolutely

Sam Parr

I like getting to know you better because I want to ask you all these stories, but I want to be respectful, you know? Yeah, because I look up to you so much. There are so many stories that you have that you could talk for hours and hours and hours, I'm sure.

Michael Harris

Well, as long as it's an exchange, like I said, I'm going to be set up to invite you on my show. I want to ask you about some of the enterprises and things that you've done. I will be an open book for you to ask me different questions that come up and about the different things that we're going to be involved in. There are a lot of things that we're going to launch this year. I can't speak about it just yet, including film projects. But next time we talk, some of it will have come to fruition, and we'll be able to discuss that. Hey!

Sam Parr

And I got stories too. It's just that every story you have is divided by 10, and that might be as exciting as my stories, but...

Michael Harris

You're not gonna feed me that. I actually, I'm getting into the podcast world because of what you do and people like yourself. In a way, you bring insight to the business world. So, I'm looking forward to being in that lane with you. Alright?

Sam Parr

alright I appreciate it man you're awesome

Michael Harris

thank you

Michael Harris

I really look up

Sam Parr

to you thanks for doing that

Michael Harris

appreciate you thank you for the opportunity