The Story of Dark Web Kingpin Ross Ulbricht

Sam Parr

It created these dopamine rushes where like

Sam Parr

it sucked it sucked it sucked

Sam Parr

And then, like, one of our articles got **1,000,000** views, and I got so pumped! Alright, Sean's not here, so Ben and I are doing this. Ben, producer Ben, what's up?

Ben Wilson

what's up how are you doing sam

Sam Parr

so this episode is kind of special because I've got people who asked us questions

Ben Wilson

Okay, should we do some of these? I'll read them, and as you're answering them, I'll go pick up some of the new ones in case anyone has responded with more stuff on Twitter. So, the first one is pretty open and pretty generic: **What do you want to learn more about in 2022?**

Sam Parr

In 2022, I want to learn more about how to get popular on YouTube. That's what I'm going to do. Additionally, in 2022, I'm going to take more adventures and do more trips. So, that's what I'm going to figure out. Do you have any suggestions?

Ben Wilson

Answer: I do, but I actually just wanted to follow up on the YouTube thing. You are a self-professed wannabe fitness influencer. Is that a part of it? Are you also trying to learn Instagram? Where is your head at with the "I wanna..."?

Sam Parr

Vlog... I wanna keep a diary of my life. I think it'd be fun to look back in 50 years and say, "Yeah, like you could see a [portion] of my life that's all in video and I could watch it and see how I behaved." I think that'd be really exciting, so that's why I wanna do it.

Ben Wilson

that's interesting

Sam Parr

that's oh wait go ahead what's yours

Ben Wilson

I was just going to say, I'm pretty much laser-focused on my podcast right now and growing it. But the other thing that I'm super interested in, and I think is going to be a big space for the crypto-type people going forward, is the idea of startup cities and autonomous cities. It's about building a new way of living from the ground up. People are doing interesting stuff there. There's something called **Prospera** that you've talked about, which Peter Thiel is trying to build somewhere in Central America. There's also **Praxis**; I've talked to those guys a little bit. There are some interesting things going on, and I would like to learn more about that and see what's happening in that scene.

Sam Parr

What are some business-related ideas or trends that you think are overhyped? I'll go first. I think it's... well, how about this? I'm actually going to say what I think is underhyped because that's also part of the question. You know what I think is underhyped? **Recycling.** I think current ways of recycling are overhyped. Did you know that most of the... you know how you have a blue bin at your home? Yeah, that's **bullshit.** It all gets thrown away and burned. Almost all of it—like the vast majority, around 90%—gets burned and they don't use it. The only reason we do that is because it makes us feel good, and so we're okay buying more stuff. I believe that this whole recycling thing was made popular by a lot of plastic... like big plastic, the plastic lobbies, and that's **bullshit.** So, I think recycling is overhyped. I think making it actually work is underhyped. I'm very, very bullish on that, and it's something that I think about all the time.

Ben Wilson

I think that's a good one. I actually did it. I used to work in consulting in a previous life, and I worked on a big project with a waste services provider - one of the big ones here in the US. I can tell you that you are absolutely correct about what you... am I? Yes.

Sam Parr

how much how much of it is just thrown away

Ben Wilson

Here's the thing: the big waste services providers—and there are two here in the U.S.—they try to recycle.

Sam Parr

yeah

Ben Wilson

The thing is, you actually have to be really good with your recycling. You have to wash out your milk carton, you know? You have to take out all of the styrofoam, even if there are little pieces. But then you...

Sam Parr

You need like five different bins. You need a plastic one, plastic two, plastic three, glass A, and glass B.

Ben Wilson

Now, in some areas, they will sort it for you. But anyway, it's extremely costly and not energy efficient. It takes a lot of energy to recycle this stuff, so is it worth it from a carbon standpoint? Most of it is just not worth it because people aren't that good about sorting out their stuff and throwing it away the right way. So anyway, you're right about that. But I do think there is an interesting space for people who do recycle. If people are willing to confront the fact that it doesn't work, then can we do some recycling stuff that does work? I think it's an interesting space.

Sam Parr

I always say it should be "reduce, reuse." That's just... end it there. Don't say "reuse, recycle," it's just "reduce, reuse." Yeah, I think it's tragic that I order something from Amazon and I get all that packaging. It hurts me. I'm like, "Why?" It hurts me just because this is inefficient, but it's like I just took this from the environment when I didn't need to.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, absolutely. The one I'll say that I think is overhyped is... I don't think it's overhyped, but I do think that you know the hype cycle, where it goes way up and then you have the trough of disillusionment, and then it comes kind of back up. I think we're right at like the top of the initial hype cycle for crypto. We're going to hit a big disillusionment, where a lot of people are going to leave the space. Then it will find its footing and discover some legitimate uses a few years from now. But I think that the current fervor cannot continue forever.

Sam Parr

I think I agree. Let's answer. Alright, so your $20,000,000 by age 30 goal—what was the process to come to that number? So, this person, basically when I was like 21 or 19, I forget, I set a goal where I wanted to have **$20,000,000** liquid by age 30. The reason why I created that goal was that I basically asked a bunch of rich people how much they spend each month. It ranged from like **$10,000** to **$100,000** a month. But this one guy, whose life I really liked, I think he said **$60,000**. I went through a lot of Monte Carlo simulations, and what it shows is if you spend only **3%** of your net worth per year, you will never run out of money, and your principal will continue to grow. So, **$60,000** times **12** is **$720,000**. Then, **3%** of **$20,000,000** is around that. So, **3%** times **$20,000,000** is **$600,000**, so it's a little bit less. I thought **$20,000,000** was a nice number because it was close to that **$60,000** a month number. A lot of people think you could spend **3.5%**, so the number changed a little bit because a lot of people say it's **3.5%**; some people say **4%**. I budgeted for **3%**, and I don't spend anywhere near that. I think I spend like **$18,000** a month.

Ben Wilson

Do you worry at all about these black swan scenarios? Like, inflation's bad right now at 15%. What if it goes really out of control? Do you prepare at all for catastrophic scenarios like that?

Sam Parr

no

Sam Parr

Like the vast majority of my net worth is in large, publicly traded companies and real estate. No, if I'm bullish on America, therefore I don't plan on its demise.

Ben Wilson

alright do you have another one you wanna do or you want me to go

Sam Parr

you can go

Ben Wilson

alright

Sam Parr

how about this one

Ben Wilson

I was just about yeah that's the one I was gonna ask too okay what what are you most proud of when it comes to my first million

Sam Parr

To this day, when people say they listen to it, I'm like, "Really? Why?" I'm shocked that anyone even listens to it. Whenever I get recognized on the street, it's weekly, and that is what I'm most proud of. I was going to bring this up, but we talked about Ross Ulbricht, and he said, "I want someone to bring up Silk Road to me, and I want them to not know that it was me." I've heard people talk about it or reference it, and they didn't know I was there. I'll say who I am; I'll say, "I'm Sam," and they don't know anything. But then I'll say, "Oh, my last name is Parr," and they go, "Oh wait, you're from the podcast! I love it!" So that is when I'm most proud: when strangers or people I don't know say that they listen. I'm most proud of that.

Sam Parr

can I

Ben Wilson

Tell a story that I was going to share at the top of the show, but I forgot. It relates to what you just said. I told you a little bit about this, but we did an AMA together about podcasting. I was talking about how to take over the world and a little bit about "My First Million." You were mostly discussing "My First Million." So, we were talking with a group of people on trends about podcasting. At the beginning, the host, the moderator, asked everyone to type in where they were from. One person said Alexandria, Virginia, which is where I live. I sent him a quick DM and said, "Hey, you're also in Alexandria. You subscribe to Trends; you're probably my kind of person. Let's go get lunch sometime." This person, we'll call him John—I'm not going to share his identity publicly—said, "Yeah, sounds great! I'll DM you on Twitter. Let's go get lunch sometime." The next day, I'm flying to where I am now, Utah, which is where my in-laws live. We get on the plane, and I'm there with my wife and my daughter, who's one. We had an aisle and a middle seat, and this guy gets on; he has the window seat. So, I say to the guy, "Hey, would you mind taking the window seat so that we're not always crawling over you to use the aisle to walk my daughter around?" The guy says, "Sure, no problem." He was super nice about it. We all sit down, and he turns to me and goes, "I'm sorry, are you Ben Wilson?" I immediately felt cool; it was the first time anyone's ever said that to me. I said, "Yeah." He said, "I'm John. I'm the guy that you messaged yesterday on that AMA." We were sitting next to each other in the same row on this airplane. So, anyway, it's my first time being recognized, and it was just one of the most insane coincidences I've ever had happen in my life.

Sam Parr

life

Sam Parr

what did he say

Ben Wilson

He said he's a huge fan. We talked to him just about what he's got going on. He had a bunch of questions about the podcast and what I'm doing. He's a really cool guy.

Sam Parr

It's really interesting when that happens because you're like, "Wait, you're smarter than me? You listen to our podcast? What the fuck?" Why? It is wild. Yeah, let's wrap up with number 67. How's that?

Ben Wilson

yeah sounds good

Sam Parr

What's the most fun you've ever had in your professional career and why? I don't know, what's yours?

Ben Wilson

I've got two answers. One is, one time I worked for a startup that did event management technology. They provided the software backbone for CES, if you know what that is. So, I would just go around. I was single at the time, and I would visit a bunch of different major conferences and events. That was just really fun from a standpoint of being in different cities all over the world. It felt like being on vacation all the time while I was working. I really liked that.

Sam Parr

That's good. Mine was when I first started the hustle. I was the only employee, blogging and trying to game Reddit to get all this traffic. It was the most fun I had because it created these dopamine rushes, where, like, it sucked.

Sam Parr

it sucked it sucked

Sam Parr

And then, like, one of our articles got **1,000,000 views**. I got so pumped! That was the most fun, where I was just writing every single day in order to get views. I think that was the most fun.

Ben Wilson

okay should we go with finish up with number 7

Sam Parr

yeah so re I your curse is over so you gotta read it

Ben Wilson

Oh, sorry. Name a couple of celebrities or high-profile business people you feel genuinely nervous about meeting.

Sam Parr

When I met Tim Ferriss, I was a little nervous, but I'm not nervous anymore. I would say when we had Andrew Huberman and Ariel Helwani on the podcast, those two folks I was more nervous to talk to than anyone else.

Ben Wilson

I will... I would absolutely say with Ariel, you definitely were for like days, weeks in advance. I didn't notice so much with Andrew, but I definitely believe you. Yeah, and I don't know... I haven't met as many rich and famous and powerful people as you, so, you know, my list is long. Like, all of them - that's my answer.

Sam Parr

No, we haven't. We've had some famous people reach out and say they like... So, like when Sean... Sean's now buddies with Hassan. I like that, but that was no big deal for me. Some of... or like we've had a handful of famous people reach out and say they listen. Like, really famous... tier 1 actor famous. And I found that to be incredibly underwhelming. When I met Lance Armstrong... So basically, I grew up...

Sam Parr

cycling and I'm a massive lance

Sam Parr

armstrong fan and one day I get and I'm a massive lance armstrong fan and one day I get this

Sam Parr

email and it's a

Sam Parr

Picture of our office in Austin. We had a sign on the window that said, "Hey, that's so cool! I didn't realize you guys were in Austin." The Gmail sender was Lance Armstrong, and he signed it just with an "L." I hit reply and said, "I don't believe you're Lance Armstrong. Here's my phone number; call me to prove it." I got a call, and he goes, "Hey man, what's going on? It's Lance." And it was Lance Armstrong! I was like, "What?" In my mind, of the top 10 famous people I could meet, he was in the top 3. I was a huge Lance fan, or still am. He goes, "What's up, dude?" I was like, "Nothing, you?" I was so shocked. Eventually, we just talked on the phone, and he asked, "You wanna come over?" I said, "Yeah, I would like to come over." He replied, "Cool, come over for breakfast next week." So I flew out there and hung out with him. Now we're friendly, and we've gone to dinner a couple of times. I still am nervous around him.

Ben Wilson

that's super wild

Sam Parr

It was... it's a crazy crate. That was the craziest, like, celebrity-style moment.

Ben Wilson

were you nervous to meet rob at dyrdek at all

Sam Parr

no not at all

Ben Wilson

that's interesting because we're also

Sam Parr

Dude, I didn't even want to do that podcast. I was like, "Why are we going to talk to Rob? He's a skateboarder; he doesn't do anything interesting." Then, on the podcast, he totally blew my mind. But at first, I said, "Why are we talking to Rob Dyrdek? He doesn't do any interesting business stuff." Yeah, alright, something interesting happened recently. So, there's this guy named Ross Ulbricht. Am I saying that right, you think?

Ben Wilson

I think so it could be ulbricht but I think it's ulbricht ulbricht

Sam Parr

Well, Ross... we're going to call him Ross. Mostly, this is not allegedly, but these are the facts. There's a lot of alleged going on here, but this is the fact that I'm going to say: he started this thing called Silk Road about 8 years ago, I believe, 3,000 days ago. I say 3,000 days for a certain reason. 3,000 days ago, he was arrested and sent to prison for life. Basically, Silk Road got famous because it had something like... if you do like today's dollar, it basically made Bitcoin popular. It was like eBay for drugs, and something like $10,000,000,000 went through it in only 2 years since he started it. He was allegedly hired for a bunch of murder-for-hires, and for just creating Silk Road and the murder-for-hires, he was sentenced to life in prison. He tweeted out the other day basically this really cool status. Whether you think he's a murderer—well, he didn't actually murder anyone—but whether you think he tried to kill people or not, and whether he's a bad guy or not, it's incredibly interesting content. He tweets about being in prison, and he somehow has access to Twitter. He is able to talk about it, and then he has a medium, like a blog, where he blogs about death and prison. It's incredibly fascinating. So, because he just tweeted this on December 17th, he tweeted, "Today is my 3,000th day in prison."

Sam Parr

I feel numb to it. I've forgotten what freedom feels like. But when I let myself feel, like I am today, I just feel pain and a deep longing to be part of the world again. So, like, this super deep stuff today. What I wanted to do was, with Ben, tell the story of Ross and explain why this story is incredibly interesting. It's almost like what we can learn from business and leadership about it. We're going to try and make an argument; we'll try to dissect the arguments of whether he is guilty or not guilty. I want to preface this podcast with a few things. First, finding unbiased information on this topic has been incredibly hard. It's been incredibly hard because the people who are on Ross's side are like these Bitcoin bros who love Bitcoin and are incredibly passionate about it. Then, of course, there's his family, who says he didn't do what he's accused of. Finding information has been hard, and also the third, maybe biggest reason, is there was a ton of corruption in this case. A lot of police officers and detectives were arrested because there was so much corruption in this case. So, I want to say that we're using research that is likely biased, and I think I'm biased about the situation. I had a strong opinion about it. So, I think what we should try to do is say what's fact and what's not, although that would be hard.

Ben Wilson

I think it's a little... I don't know where you kind of came out on it. For me, it was really easy to put myself in Ross's shoes. So, I found myself naturally drifting towards opinions that exonerated him. I had to kind of check myself because I want him to be innocent, if that makes sense.

Sam Parr

And that's what I have at the bottom of our show: for us to talk about what our opinion is. One of my points is that it's easy for guys like you and I—white dudes who are good-intentioned and have access to the internet—to imagine ourselves in certain situations. That's what this guy Ross, whom we're going to talk about, represents. He looked like a tall, good-looking guy, and it's easy for us to envision ourselves as just like him. But when I lived in San Francisco, there were these Guatemalans on the corner who would sell heroin to people on the street. I was so angry at them. I thought, "Man, these guys should be arrested. What the hell?" Then I caught myself thinking, "Well, Ross did it." And I realized, "No, no, no, that's fucking racism." It has to be the same either way. Just because he's doing it on the internet doesn't make it right, you know what I mean? So anyway, we'll talk about that. Let's start with the background. Do you want to go first, Ben?

Ben Wilson

Sure, so he starts in your old stomping grounds—he starts in Austin. He was kind of a science guy in college; he studied, I want to say, something like neuroscience or something like that. But he was more of a science-oriented person before he decided to go down the business road. He had this kind of flash of an idea and kept a diary, which turned out to be not a great idea for him. If you keep a diary, keep the bad stuff out to cover yourself. But he wrote down basically everything in his diary. He wrote, "The idea was to create a website where people could buy anything anonymously with no trail whatsoever that could lead back to them." He had been studying the technology for a while but needed a business model and strategy. So, he kind of goes into his bunker. I read something from his girlfriend at the time that said he became increasingly withdrawn and was just in his room 24/7, programming and coming up with the business model for what would become Silk Road. Silk Road is essentially a marketplace where you could buy or sell anything. Initially, they did end up putting some restrictions on it, like no child pornography. There were other things written there as well. What else could you not do on Silk Road? No fake degrees.

Sam Parr

And no counterfeit goods. But there are times when those rules kind of got blurred. Someone asked, "Should we allow cyanide?" Pretty much the only reason people use cyanide is for killing themselves or killing other people. Should we allow that? They ended up allowing it, so there was a little bit of gray area regarding what they allowed and what they didn't allow. Before he started the Silk Road, he had an online business called Goodwacket, where he sold books. It didn't go so hot; the peak revenue he made in one month was about $10, so his profit was very little. At the beginning of 2011, in that same diary, he wrote, "Well, basically, he admits everything about starting it." He goes on to say, "In 2011, I am creating a year of prosperity and power beyond what I have ever experienced before. Silk Road is going to become a phenomenon." I can never say that word! "At least one person will tell me about it unknowingly, or unknowing that I am its creator." He talks about that, and even in his LinkedIn, it says... what did it say?

Ben Wilson

where'd it go

Sam Parr

Oh, sorry. On his LinkedIn, he wrote: > "I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion." I can't ever say that word either. What's wrong with me? How many... Read this for me, Ben: "Use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion." I can't even... *coercion*. Alright, here I'll read: **coercion**.

Ben Wilson

On his LinkedIn page, Ross wrote that he wanted to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and aggression amongst mankind.

Sam Parr

So, he's basically acknowledging all this. What he does is he learns how to program. I believe he just used the most basic coding languages ever and builds this website on this thing called Tor. Tor is basically a different version of Chrome; it's a web browser. It was developed in the early 2000s by the U.S. Navy because they wanted a way for officials who were in North Korea or in China to be able to use the internet without being tracked. So, they created this browser. I remember when I was a little younger, when Silk Road was around, I downloaded Tor and I went to the Silk Road's website. You had to type in all these weird numbers in order to find it, and it popped up. It was amazing! I couldn't believe that this was a thing.

Ben Wilson

Most people who used it were using it to buy weed, essentially. There was all this stuff around the edges, but the research that they have done shows that people were generally going to it to buy small amounts of weed. Not like big drug dealers, but just kind of people like Sam who are like, "Oh cool, you can buy anything on here. I will buy weed."

Sam Parr

I never bought anything on them, just for the record. But the hustle... we did an article all about this. I had friends that bought Ritalin from it, and they were like kind of squares. They were not people I would have thought were drug users, you know? But they bought Ritalin and Adderall on the Silk Road. I used to go to it. I never bought anything from it, but I would go to it just to think, "I can't believe this is a thing." Right when it launched, he basically grew some mushrooms and put them on the website in order to get the initial sales. Then, somehow, Gawker found it just a few months after starting it and created an article about it on Gawker.com, which at the time was one of the most popular sites on the web. That's kind of when it blew up.

Ben Wilson

And he, you know, you mentioned his kind of early comment about manifesting the growth of this thing. He also comes up around this time with his moniker. So, the system admin, who we now know to be Ross, wrote, "Who is Silk Road? I am Silk Road—the market, the person, the enterprise. Everything I need a name." Then he said, "My new name is Dread Pirate Roberts." Do you know where Dread Pirate Roberts comes from?

Sam Parr

a little bit but tell me

Ben Wilson

It's from "The Princess Bride." So, it's kind of the main character, Wesley, who goes and gets kidnapped by the Dread Pirate Roberts. Then later it turns out he *is* the Dread Pirate Roberts, and that "Dread Pirate Roberts" is actually more of a position. So once one pirate dies, someone else becomes the Dread Pirate Roberts.

Sam Parr

And that means it's important because that's like the whole crux of the case, which is: are there many people doing this or just one?

Ben Wilson

Right, so in the name is seeded this idea that there could be many people who are Dread Pirate Roberts. It kind of hints at that. Having said that, there is... I don't know if you want to go through it, but there's pretty compelling evidence that he was at least the main person who was Dread Pirate Roberts.

Sam Parr

Let's do that, but just not yet. First, I want to set the background and finish up with what Silk Road was and Ross's background. So, around this time, in February of 2012, we're about a year after the launch. He starts blogging on Silk Road, and you can go and read some of his writing. His writing is very good. The character of Ross and the character of Dread Pirate Roberts is very romantic, and it creates a cult of personality. He writes about how we need to stop funding the state with our tax dollars and direct our productive energies into the black market. He says, "Money is powerful, and it's gonna take power to affect the changes I want to see." It's all about how people need to have their own rights to decide what they want to do with their bodies—things like this. It's very traditional libertarian thinking, what's it called, the Austrian school of economics. He even writes, "What we are doing will have rippling effects for generations to come." He uses words that make him sound like a dictator, and you want to get behind him. He sounds like he's furthering this romantic and admirable cause. In some ways, I'm on board with that because I am on board with Bitcoin and the idea that we don't want to be controlled by a central bank. He does a really good job of using that language.

Ben Wilson

It's amazing to go back and look at it, considering the amount of value that was flowing through Silk Road at the time. Bitcoin hadn't had its moment yet, the way it has now. You can go back and look at the amount that flowed into Dread Pirate Roberts's wallet. If he just held it, it's now worth like $5,000,000,000 or more. Yeah, so it's booming. As you said, Gawker picks it up, and there's a lot of money flowing through it.

Sam Parr

and after only 2 years of doing this he gets arrested and the way that he gets arrested is is is pretty amazing so basically in like 2010 he writes into a forum stack o stack overflow a popular development forum forum developer forum and he goes how do I connect to a tor hidden service using the curl in php and then he he lists his website as rossolbright@gmail and so he's like he posts that which that in itself isn't interesting but what they noticed is that immediately after posting that he changes his username from his name ross olbright to frosty and the reason that's also interesting is the very time the very first time anyone used the word or referenced the silk road it was a username in a forum called the shumery.org and frosty that username he writes something like hey has anyone seen this cool new thing called silk road where you can buy and sell anything anonymously so he posts that and then in another thread using frosty that same username he posts something saying like I'm working on this site that helps people sell and buy anything I need help dm me if interested you know he he says something like that and so that's actually how they like catch him and they noticed that this guy ross previously he had gotten in a little bit of trouble because homeland security opened a package a few months prior and they found like 20 different fake ids all with his picture and different addresses on there and they went to his home and they busted them and he said he bought them like as a gag and so he actually got away with it he didn't get in trouble but they go this is kind of interesting this guy has a little bit of a background and they end up like stalking all of his social profiles and they notice that he's talking a lot of libertarian stuff on his linkedin he says what he does and it's what I said earlier about very libertarian vibe he watches a ton of libertarian and bitcoin related videos on youtube and comments on them and that's basically how they catch him and so what they do is they find out that he lives in glen park and I have a story about that because glen park is where I live he lived right down the street from me when he was arrested they found out that he goes lives in glen park and the police stake out his house and what they're able to do is they're able to track him because throughout this process which I'm gonna talk about an undercover agent an agent went undercover and befriended him and basically became an employee of silk road additionally they had arrested other employees of the silk road and I'm gonna tell you how in a minute and they were having conversations with ross because of that the whole time and what they noticed when they were tracking him in glen park they noticed that when dpr is saying he's going to get off the computer so when and he tells his employees like hey guys I'm done for the day and he closes his computer they notice that ross goes out for a walk and so they're just able to catch like okay whenever dpr logs off ross is out walking around and so what they do is they go to the library because ross goes to the library he works out of the live the library this library was basically like 8 houses up from my house and he goes to the library and he logs onto his computer and what the investigators do is they have 2 of their guys go behind him ross is sitting at a table with his computer open working on the silk road they have 2 investigators go behind him and kind of act like 2 homeless people getting in a fight and ross turns his back to his computer to see what's going on and someone swoops in and grabs the laptop from out of him and then another person tackles him and they rush the laptop down to the van waiting outside and they take screenshots of it and then they download the the data and he was logged in to the silk road admin account and everything that they ever want is there and they could easily see how much bitcoin he had they could see everything and at the time he had 144,000 bitcoin which at its peak 60 ks it's like 8.

Sam Parr

$5,000,000,000 that he had. So they caught all of this, and when they logged on to the computer, they found his diary where he's logging all of this interesting stuff going on. He's got an escape plan about what he's going to do if he gets caught. I mean, it's just all there.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, and it wasn't just that. They have this physical tail on him, and they're able to, like, using this kind of shoe leather approach, connect him to Dripout Roberts. But they also had... did you read how many federal agents they had infiltrating Silk?

Sam Parr

road no do you wanna guess I don't know 50

Ben Wilson

That's really close to 60. That's 60 federal agents who were on there doing like fake sales or fake buys and busts.

Sam Parr

lot of them weren't even talking to each other right

Ben Wilson

Right, and a couple of them—and this will come into it later—were like pocketing money. Essentially, when they were busting people, they were just like, "Well, no one really understands Bitcoin, so if it just ends up in my wallet, it's fine." One of them ends up going to prison for that.

Sam Parr

So, well, let's talk about that in two seconds. But first, Ross is arrested for doing that, and everyone's shocked. I'm going to tell a story about that in a moment, but everyone's shocked. Eventually, after a very short amount of time, he goes on trial, and he gets locked up. They found him guilty, and the judge sentences him to two life terms plus 40 years. So, that's the verdict. Then they appeal it, and they go to the Supreme Court, and they just say, "Nope, we're holding this up." So, at this point, it is very, very likely he is in there forever, and nothing will ever happen. Now, this is where a lot of the drama begins. The reason why a lot of the drama begins is because there's a lot of debate over whether there were multiple people as Dread Pirate Roberts. The debate is, if there were multiple people, did he commit the hits? Throughout this process, there were four or five different times where someone emailed him, like an employee, and tried to blackmail him, saying things like, "I'm going to reveal your identity if you don't give me blank." So, Ross hired someone, or Dread Pirate Roberts hired someone, to go and kill these four or five people. But the person he hired was an FBI agent. They went to the people's houses, knocked on the door, and said, "We know you're up to no good. We're supposed to kill you. You better cooperate with us." They took fake pictures of them killing these people, and in exchange, the people spilled the beans on everything they knew. That's how they got access to be able to track him so well.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, so to be clear, he was never convicted of this. In fact, he was never even charged with putting out these hits. That's because they probably didn't have a very solid case. It was going to be very difficult to prove that he was actually the one that did it. But it really seems like the reason they wanted to put him away for so long was because they were pretty sure that he did it; they just couldn't prove it.

Sam Parr

The judge says basically, "I need to make an example out of you." She goes, "We need to put an example to anyone who creates the Silk Road. This is what's gonna happen." The prosecution actually told the judge, "We want 20 years," and she goes, "No, no, no, we're doing life." They gave him life, which is wild. They never actually pursued the murder charges or the murder-for-hire charges, but she does say in her reasoning for the sentencing that she takes that into account and assumes that he does it. I don't know much about the law; I don't know if that's considered kosher or not, but that's what happened.

Ben Wilson

It seems legally suspect to me that something you were not convicted of could count towards your sentencing. Yeah, I don't know.

Sam Parr

I I

Ben Wilson

I do think so. Okay, do we want to jump into some of the implications of this and some of our conclusions? One thing I will say that scares me a little bit is essentially he's being put away for life for something that they couldn't prove he did. Like...

Sam Parr

Well, what I believe the charge was a bunch of drug charges. But then there's this, if I'm not mistaken, there's this thing called the Kingpin Act, something like that. Basically, in the forties and fifties, they were trying to arrest these guys like Al Capone. They were like, "Shit, all we can get them for is tax evasion," but we know they murdered people. So, they created this act that basically says they can put these guys in prison for a long time, even if they don't know that they did it, but they know that they were involved in so many things.

Ben Wilson

Correct. And so, I guess how you feel about that is going to determine a lot about how you feel about this: crimes that they can't get them for, they just, like you said, kind of add up these tax evasion charges until they say, "Alright, well we couldn't get you for murder, but you're going to be life behind bars anyway for tax evasion."

Sam Parr

It's pretty wild, and let me tell you a quick story. Then we're going to have an argument about why we think he's not the one and why we do think he is the one. I will try hard to do both. So, I've told this story to you, Ben, a couple of times. I've also shared it on the podcast, but since we're talking about it already, I'll bring it up. Around 2012, I went to a party in San Francisco. I was single at the time and saw this girl. I was flirting with her when this very charismatic, tall guy came in and kind of stole the girl from me. I wasn't mad, you know; we were just flirting. But I was in awe of him. I was charmed by his energy. He was nice enough, good-looking, and confident. He stole her, and I looked up who this guy was after the party. I found out his name was Ross Ulbricht. I looked him up on LinkedIn. We weren't friends, but we had that one run-in. I heard he lived on the street from me in Glen Park. If you're in San Francisco, Glen Park is a neighborhood that's a little more family-oriented. So, if you're young, pretty much no other young people live out there, and I was one of the young guys. I thought, "Oh, that's cool. I gotta holler at this guy one day." Well, I saw that there was a big commotion at the library in Glen Park. I live down the street from the library and would hang out there. I looked online and found out that this guy I knew, Ross, had been arrested for starting Silk Road. I was in awe. I thought, "Oh my God!" So, I went online and found all the pictures we had together at that party. I took screenshots of all of them, and then we had to delete all of them because, you know, everyone was nervous. We're like...

Sam Parr

oh shit

Ben Wilson

After this party, when you look him up, what did people think? What was the public face of what he was doing? What did you think he did?

Sam Parr

who do you

Ben Wilson

think he was

Sam Parr

he had so I think his linkedin

Sam Parr

like the description said what it said up there I think it also said that he was a currency trader or some type

Sam Parr

Of like currency trading or some type of currency... I don't know anything about that world of finance, but it was interesting. Bitcoin wasn't that popular at the time. In fact, the day after I told my friend Billy, I said, "Billy, this dude I know was arrested for Silk Road. Your dad likes Bitcoin, right?" Billy's dad was Tim Draper, who eventually goes on to buy the Bitcoin. I think he was already a billionaire, but he bought the Bitcoin that Ross was arrested with because the government auctioned it off. That Bitcoin is worth like $5,000,000,000, and he bought it from the government for like $20,000,000 or something like that. I said to Billy, "This is crazy!" He replied, "Yeah, my dad's..." At the time, he didn't know that his dad was going to buy it, but he said, "Yeah, my dad loves Bitcoin. He thinks it's like the future." I was like, "Alright, that sounds cool. I don't know anything about it, but if this is just too good to be true, like, I gotta... you're telling me you think it's gonna be popular and then the guy got arrested? I'm just gonna buy some." And that's how I bought Bitcoin for my family that year for Christmas.

Ben Wilson

So if you were attaching a percentage chance to it, what do you think the chances are that he was the one who put out the hits for hire? "70%." So you think he probably did, but you're not totally sure?

Sam Parr

So, yeah, let's get into it. The problem with this case is that there's a large amount of information out there that's really good for both sides, and it's really hard to know who to trust. I don't know... What's not debated is that he started it. The [question] is like, when did he give...

Sam Parr

it up and so let me explain to you why I think it's suspect

Sam Parr

So, he had this friend named Richard Bates. Rich tried to recruit Richard to come work at the Silk Road when he first started it, but Richard was like, "No, I'm not into that, man. That's illegal." Eventually, Ross wrote to him and said, "Alright, I sold the site." But in the diary, he wrote, "I've been lying to my friends and telling them when I sold it." This has happened a bunch of different times, and it's hard. What we forgot to mention was that throughout this case, there were like 3 or 4 different FBI agents or DEA agents who were convicted and went to prison because they started talking with Ross and getting into Bitcoin. They eventually started feeding him information about what the feds were doing, and they began stealing Bitcoin. They were locked up and sent to prison for this. So, there's a massive amount of corruption going on here. But you could say, and his parents say, because there was so much corruption, "We can't trust the entire case." I actually think there can be corruption and it can also be true. For example, O.J. Simpson and Mark Furman. I think Mark Furman planted that glove. So, you know the saying, "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit." They found this glove in O.J. Simpson's thing, but they were like, "Why is this glove here?" I think Mark Furman planted it because he was racist, but also, O.J. killed that lady, right? You know what I mean? I think a conspiracy can exist and also the guy's guilty.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, I think so. One of the big points of debate is: did anyone else have access to Dread Pirate Roberts? It seems clear that other people, at least at times, a few other admins did have access. But there probably weren't multiple Dread Pirate Roberts, if that makes sense. He was Dread Pirate Roberts, but maybe some other people had limited access for a short amount of time. The other question is: once the FBI and the DEA had access to his laptop and had access to Dread Pirate Roberts, could they go back and edit messages in order to make them support their case, essentially? He argued that they did. There are some people who were involved with Silk Road who basically say, "Yeah, I went back and looked at my messages after the FBI had access to Ross's laptop, and my old messages are totally whack. I didn't say any of that stuff." Now, they might have reason to say that stuff anyway, but that is an argument.

Sam Parr

Yes, but there are things like that which make me question it. Then there are things like this. So, listen to this. This is a post that Ross wrote: "There have been more than one occasion where I've wanted to quit. Without getting into details, the stress of being DPR is sometimes overwhelming. What keeps me going is the understanding that what we are doing here is more than just my insignificant little life. I believe what we are doing will have rippling effects throughout many generations. There's going to be a shift in how human beings organize and relate to one another. I've gone through the mental exercise of spending a lifetime in prison and dying for this cause. I've let the fear pass to me, and with clarity, I commit myself fully to the mission and values outlined in the Silk Road charter." So, he writes things like that, and I think, "Are you just lying to all of us?"

Ben Wilson

Well, in a little bit, it's like if you believed in something that strongly—what he's saying is like this glorious revolution—then would you be willing to kill for something that's that important?

Sam Parr

and definitely

Ben Wilson

yeah I mean it sounds like the

Sam Parr

Kind of rhetoric that... maybe. So, let's talk about some more evidence that shows that he didn't do this. There's no doubt he admitted that there's this great website called "Free Ross." I'm not saying I actually agree with it, but it's called Free Ross. They have a post titled "The True Story," and someone on his team wrote this really long blog post that cites all the evidence they mentioned. Basically, in that post, Ross admitted, "Yeah, I started it, but I handed it over." A hacker came to him and said, "I figured out how your site works. I'm going to get into it because of this error you made. Otherwise, you should just sell it to me." So, he does... or that's what they say the story is. Then, he sells it to the guy who started Mt. Gox. Do you know what his name is?

Ben Wilson

I'm looking I'm trying to look it up right now

Sam Parr

So, he sells this to the guy. Basically, Mt. Gox in 2012 was... in 2011, 2010 was Coinbase. But back then, eventually this guy gets locked up and goes to prison because Mt. Gox gets hacked. He kind of knew about it, and so he's kind of a **fucking crook**. I mean, this guy's a crook, hardcore. But what the police say and the feds say is that Silk Road was registered on a domain service owned by this guy. They claim that most of the transactions that were working with Silk Road went through Mt. Gox. It made sense for the Mt. Gox CEO to want to own Silk Road because it increased the price of Bitcoin and made them more valuable. So, that's a huge accusation here.

Ben Wilson

mark kerpelz

Sam Parr

is yes

Ben Wilson

the is the name

Sam Parr

So, that's what a lot of people think. A lot of people say, "Well, he actually wasn't it." Then they go, "Why was Ross on Silk Road when he got arrested?" They say, "Because this guy hired Ross as a freelancer after he sold it for help." Multiple people had access to it. So they say, "Yeah, he was helping him run Silk Road when he got arrested, but he's not the guy who ordered the murder for hire or did a lot of the other stuff." Yes, I met a guy the other day who lost $20,000,000 in the Mt. Gox hack. Sheesh! And that guy, the Mt. Gox guy, he's a French guy who spent time in prison for doing a bunch of bad stuff in Japan. So, I think that guy's sleazy.

Ben Wilson

It is sort of a "just so" story though, that like, "Oh yeah, I was totally out of it, but I was doing this one last freelancing gig." You guys happened to catch me at the exact moment when I just happened to log in for one last time, just to help this guy out. It does stretch credulity a little bit.

Sam Parr

It does, but there are so many things in the story, and we're only touching on a little bit of it. There's a book called *American Kingpin*. There is so much in the story that is hard to believe is true, but it is, in fact, true. Basically, when Ross started this in 2010 or 2011, he was like a happy-go-lucky guy, thinking, "Oh, you know, I'm down on my luck. I'm going to try this." Then, within 18 months, you see his tone change to being this domineering, "We're going to take over the world and further this cause" type of guy. This is just like... I mean, it's a movie! Just how this guy could do it. He had the good looks and the charisma. So, it's hard to know what to believe because there's a lot of unbelievable stuff that's true.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, exactly. And also, add to the fact that by virtue of what he's trying to do, most of it is secretive by design. So, it is hard to unravel and unpack what is true and what is not because it's intentionally obscure. And, I don't know... it is just so weird to me that multiple federal agents—multiple, multiple federal agents—on this case get arrested and do hard time for corruption.

Sam Parr

And one guy who did it, I think his name is Carl Force. I think he got sentenced to 76 months, so like, what's that? Like 6 years? He basically... you can go and read his chats. I think that he fell in love with Ross and this idea. He fell in love with the idea of this mission. He would say, "Dude, you're gonna get arrested. I'm gonna get fired from this. I'm gonna go to jail for this." At first, he wanted to make money, but because this is such a romantic idea of overthrowing the government, and like the little guys are winning, they all bonded together. When I was reading this, I was like, "I wish I was part of this." So I understand it. This guy, Knob, that was his username, Carl Force's username on Silk Road. He just did it for fun and just to learn. Then he realized he got into it. I think it was a combination of greed. He eventually stole from people out of greed, but also, I think they just got caught up in the intoxication of all this. Because when you're doing something like this, it feels like there are no consequences. When you're building something online, it's like, "Well, this is just fake. There are no consequences." Yeah, so let's talk about how big this was. The Silk Road, even though it had a massive impact on Bitcoin and society and things like that, was only around for, I think, 2 years. Let me see if I have some stats...

Sam Parr

Between May and July, 1,200,000 messages were sent on the platform. When he was arrested, he had 144,000 Bitcoin, which at its peak was worth around $8,500,000,000. Keep in mind, he was only taking about a 10% fee, so that's not including the transactional volume. In 2013, it was reported that he was generating more than $7,000,000 in income. DPR, that was his annual revenue. With these businesses, there's gross merchandise revenue or total transaction volume, which is like if you're eBay, how much goods are going through. But then there's how much the actual company makes because they only take a 10% fee. His 10% fee added up to him making $7,000,000 in Bitcoin. If you adjust that to today's prices, that means he was making around $5,000,000,000 a year already in year two. There are a bunch of interesting things about this. The first is that he was doing all of this remotely without knowing the identity of his coworkers. He eventually hired freelancers, but he made them send their IDs and stuff like that. He had a team, and he didn't know at all who they were, and it was all done remotely. That's incredibly interesting; they built something that big, that fast, that way. Second, he didn't know how to code; he was learning to code as he was going.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, that is kind of mind-blowing. It is interesting that he was able to do it with this remote team that he'd never met, but like half of them ended up trying to extort him. So maybe a cautionary tale there in terms of who you work with.

Sam Parr

With, but like, yeah... oh well, sure. It was a productive working relationship other than that huge thing. So if it's like a thing where it's like, "Well, no, like we're selling bottles of soda," I can call the police on you. It's not like I'm afraid to call the police on you about this thing.

Ben Wilson

Totally. The numbers, by the way, in terms of this, are like the estimates. They say **$1,200,000,000** worth of illegal drug transit transactions took place.

Sam Parr

is that at the time of bitcoin's price in 2013

Ben Wilson

yes not current day price that is at the time price

Sam Parr

So then I think Bitcoin, when he was arrested, was worth around $80 or $90, and at its peak it was $60,000. So what's that? You multiply it by 6,000...

Ben Wilson

Yeah, it's a lot of money. A lot, a lot of money in today's value. So $1,200,000,000: - $46,000,000 of that is marijuana - $17,400,000 is cocaine - $8,900,000 is heroin Then... how much? $1,000,000,000? $1,200,000,000 in then-time money total moved.

Sam Parr

Oh my gosh, I can't even... my calculator! I'm struggling to even read those numbers. It's basically like **$780,000,000,000**. That's so wild! It's crazy, right? It's crazy how big this is.

Ben Wilson

I would love to see some numbers. I don't know if you have them - I don't have them - of what percentage of Bitcoin transactions back then, and even up till now, took place on Silk Road.

Sam Parr

It's crazy. The reason why they suspected it was Mt. Gox was that when they started, it accounted for like 75% of Mt. Gox's business. So, let's talk about why this story is so fascinating. The first reason is that there's just a lot of drugs, sex, and rock and roll. Like, we're into that—no problem admitting it. The second reason is that for a lot of white, nerdy tech internet guys, of which both of us are, this guy Ross is incredibly relatable. We look at him and we're like, "Oh, I could see myself doing that." Maybe not going that far, but in some regard, I would say we're envious of him. We're like, "Oh man, he had the courage to do this epic thing," because it doesn't seem like there are any bad consequences to what he was doing, even though it's not realistic. But that's how it feels.

Ben Wilson

And it's also like it tugs on your heartstrings a little bit to look at a guy who you're like, "Yeah, he's kind of like me," and he's never going to breathe a free breath again for the rest of his life. It's just hard to digest that. Let's take for granted that he did call in these hits, right? It feels like someone who just really got caught up and got really carried away. I know we've all had to check ourselves; that's not really an excuse.

Sam Parr

that's not fair that's incredibly unfair

Ben Wilson

It's incredibly unfair to other people who do get put away for these kinds of things. But it is... easy to relate to and to excuse if you're someone like us who has an easy time putting yourself in his shoes.

Sam Parr

Another reason why this story is incredibly interesting—and this is the part that hurts—is that it feels like Ross's life is a wasted life. This guy was kind of... I wouldn't say he was a genius, but he created something amazing, and it only lasted two years. Now he's in prison forever, and it's just like a total waste. That's why I feel angry about this. I'm like, "Man, this guy was so smart! He had it going for him. What the heck, man? Now he can't do anything."

Ben Wilson

Yeah, and also I feel like his life is a little bit of a waste. Silk Road is a little bit of a waste. You know, obviously some really terrible stuff happened on it. I think, and I don't know how much I agree with like hardcore heroin and stuff. But at the same time, I don't know if you are someone who has a little bit of a libertarian streak. You're kind of like, "Well, shouldn't there be room for something where people can do stuff outside of the all-seeing eye of the government?" You know?

Sam Parr

So, I went through the same battle as well. I consider myself to be aligned with a lot of libertarian ideas, but I realized I'm not a true libertarian because I don't want drugs to be legal. In real life, I live in San Francisco, and I would see these guys shooting heroin all the time. I even found a dead body at my office once. Did I ever tell you that? No? So, I was at my office, and I got in early at around 8:30. There are often people sleeping at our door, and I would nudge them with my foot, saying, "Hey, you gotta move, please. My employees are coming; you can't lay in our doorway." I did that this time, and the person was dead from drugs. We would see things like that all the time. I lived in SOMA, and I would see the drug dealers. They were allowed to be there. I knew who they were; I could tell you a little bit about their background. I would hear them talking, and I was so angry at them. I thought, "These guys are the worst for our society. They're only hurting people. This is not good." That's when I changed my mind. I realized I don't want heroin to be legal. I don't want this to be legal. This is not good. I was so mad at these guys. Then, I found myself romanticizing Ross so much, and I had to check myself and say, "This is wrong." It's wrong on both sides. If I don't like these gangbangers selling this stuff, I can't also think that Ross is innocent or that he shouldn't suffer.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, absolutely. I get what you're saying. I mean, I'm not a true libertarian either, but I don't know. It's just like I can't even think of a specific use case for it. But just the idea that there should be a place that isn't owned—does that make sense? It appeals to me.

Sam Parr

Yeah, I agree. That's another reason why we like him so much; it's because we're like, "His intentions were interesting." Yes, so you did your research for a little while. What is your opinion on if he's guilty or not? Well, on a bunch of different stuff, there's actually a lot that I want your opinion on. Okay, so we... you believe that he started it, obviously. He admitted that. Do you think that he was running it the entire time? Yes. So then that means you think that he ordered those hits?

Ben Wilson

I maintain that there is a possibility that...

Sam Parr

That, at least, the chat logs were massaged in order to make it look more open and shut. Man, I think that a person would do that. The problem that I have with a lot of conspiracies is that when many people are involved in something, keeping a secret is impossible. Keeping a secret is very, very, very hard. If there are 3 or 4 people involved, particularly government officials, it seems like keeping that type of secret is so freaking hard. So if that did happen, there had to be more people involved.

Ben Wilson

and did did there though I mean I guess

Sam Parr

like would one person risk their career

Ben Wilson

just to get multiple people did that's the thing you know well they did

Sam Parr

they got caught they did to make money

Ben Wilson

yes most of them yeah

Sam Parr

What do you have to gain by changing this? Just a guy goes to jail. I don't care about him that much.

Ben Wilson

Well, you gotta realize though that for some of these prosecutors and for some of these agents, this is a career-making thing. Like, "I'm the guy who busted Ross Albright and sent him to jail." Drug kingpin, $1,000,000,000 worth of transactions. You're kind of made right after that, right? So, I do think they had something to gain from it. It's a little conspiratorial. I don't know that I would assign more than a 50% chance of that actually happening, but I like to maintain a 30 to 40% chance that maybe something like that could have happened.

Sam Parr

do you think that he deserves life in jail

Ben Wilson

No, well, if it... I don't know. I guess, yeah, if he did try to call hits on people multiple times, then yes, someone who does that does deserve to... does deserve life in jail. Yeah, I guess.

Sam Parr

So, the reason why I'm a little suspect is that at first I thought, "That's fair." But then I realized, no one died. No one actually died. For murder, a lot of murder-for-hires, particularly if no one dies, they don't get life. They get 20 years. So, it is crazy that he got life. There are also a lot of cases—I listen to a ton of crime stuff—where people actually kill someone and they don't get life. They can get out after 25 years. You have to ask, and I've spent time in prisons working with a lot of people. I've met inmates who killed their mom or killed someone in their family, killed their wife, and they get out after 20 years because they've proven that they're rehabilitated. When they did it, they were young-ish, and they're like, "We think you could deserve a second chance."

Ben Wilson

did you read the chat logs at all

Sam Parr

Well, there... so that's another thing about this case. There are so many chat logs—like thousands and thousands of pages. So, which ones...?

Ben Wilson

I've been talking about specifically the ones where he supposedly orders the murder for hire.

Sam Parr

yeah he was pretty callous about it

Ben Wilson

Yes, but the other side, who I believe did turn out to be a federal agent, is that correct? Yeah, he's like kind of drawing him into it a little bit... like a little bit.

Sam Parr

yeah

Ben Wilson

Of like, "Man, this is such a problem. I wish there was a way for it to not be a problem." You know, and he's definitely trying to move him in that direction.

Sam Parr

I I

Sam Parr

Think Ross says, "Let's just beat him up," and the guy replies with, "I don't know if that's gonna solve this."

Ben Wilson

Yes, which is like pretty shady. Especially if you think that's a federal agent. Like, man, why are you trying to bait this kid into ordering a hit?

Sam Parr

So, my opinion is that there’s a lot to consider regarding trials. You have to paint a picture of a shadow of a doubt. I have a shadow of a doubt, but I think that it’s likely that it was him. I do think that he deserves time in prison—10 to 20 years—just for the drug charges and for creating Silk Road. However, I think it’s kind of **bullshit** that the judge sentenced him for the murder-for-hire without actually trying him for it. I think that’s a little nonsensical. So, my opinion is, yeah, he’s totally guilty. The question is, how much stuff is he guilty of? In my opinion, it’s enough to get 10 to 20 years. But if they wanted to give him life, they really should have charged him with murder-for-hire and proven that it actually happened.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, do you think so? It's like early 2012, right in the middle of Silk Road going gangbusters. Do you think there is any... and there are 60 DEA agents infiltrating it. They're on his case; they're monitoring his house. Do you think there's anything that he could have done to either go legit somehow and turn it into a marketplace for things that were maybe questionable but not totally illegal? Or is there a way...?

Sam Parr

He could have just remained undetected and outsmarted the feds. I think there's a world where he could have gotten away with it if he bailed. I think he could have bailed and gotten away, man. Like, there's a lot of examples... Whitey Bulger, you know? Whitey Bulger, yeah, he was basically the character that Robert De Niro... is it Robert De Niro in "The Departed"? What's the... Jack Nicholson? Which one?

Ben Wilson

yeah that's right

Sam Parr

He was a gangster in Boston. He got enough loot—he got like the equivalent of $15,000,000—and he said, "I'm out." He left Boston and moved to Santa Monica, where he lived relatively peacefully for about 30 years. Then, he was arrested when he was around 90. I think there's a world where someone like Ross could have done something similar. He could have lived for a little while, maybe the rest of his life, undetected if he just stayed low profile. But I think a guy like him, and myself included, would probably rather die than shut up forever.

Ben Wilson

Yeah, is there a way he could have kept it running from some small island in the Caribbean or off the coast of Africa or something like that?

Sam Parr

well aren't there still sites like this are

Ben Wilson

there I don't think the I'm pretty sure there's nothing at that scale

Sam Parr

I don't know; I haven't actually researched it. But for the hustle, we had a guy talk about using medicinal LSD to help him with his depression. We did an article where he just showed how he buys it online, and I actually saw him buy it. It was on a competitor's site.

Ben Wilson

Well, I think a lot of this is changing just in that the idea of a "drug war" has taken a hit. So a lot of people are less gung-ho about enforcing this kind of stuff. There are now many places where you can... I don't know about LSD, that probably does have to be pretty black market, but there's some gray market stuff where you can buy shrooms and other kinds of lighter psychedelics.

Sam Parr

Yeah, for sure. It might be illegal. I mean, you could take ketamine and you can go to a doctor and get ketamine in New York and a few other states, I believe. So, yeah, it's an interesting story. Another interesting thing is that his girlfriend, I believe she still lives in Austin, so she's a major part of the book that I took a lot of information from called *American Kingpin*. I think her name is Vivian, and you could follow her on Instagram. She's like this beautiful Black lady, Debbie; she kind of looks like my wife, to be honest. You could follow her on Instagram, and it's really cool because if you read the book or learn about him, you can go and use the web archive to see pictures on Instagram and on Facebook and things like that that the author is describing. So you can kind of track this journey. You're like, "Oh man, here he is! See, they're under the Golden Gate Bridge. They took that picture. There she is!" And you could still follow her. I think she just got engaged. I follow her on Instagram.

Ben Wilson

Before anyone thinks that Sam's just being conceited because you literally did just say "She's super hot, she looks like my wife," the first time I saw that picture of her with Ross, I did go, "Is that Sarah?" Like, she does look a lot like your wife.

Sam Parr

Yes, yeah she does. I actually don't know what Rachel Dolezal is, but she's definitely... I bet she's mixed, half white, half black. That's what my wife is, and it does look like her from afar. It's cool you could see all these pictures of them together. What a crazy story! So, I don't know, where do we go from here?

Ben Wilson

Don't do drugs. Don't sell drugs. That's our official advice. Don't start a marketplace where people can buy and sell drugs.

Sam Parr

it it it's an it's a fascinating story the book american kingpin have you read that

Ben Wilson

no I haven't read it

Sam Parr

It's the greatest book I've ever read. It's the number one best book I've ever read. I was so impacted by it... It's a story that sucks you in. I couldn't set it down. It's amazing. It's so good. So read that and that's that. I wonder if people are going to like this style of episode. I... I think they will. I think it's kind of cool.

Ben Wilson

turns out yeah that was great

Sam Parr

alright is that the pod

Ben Wilson

I think that's the pod