How To Build A Billion Dollar Business As An Influencer
Billion Dollar Creators, ConvertKit, and Ladders of Wealth - February 3, 2022 (about 3 years ago) • 01:23:44
Transcript:
| Start Time | Speaker | Text |
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Shaan Puri | You got to | |
Nathan Barry | Choose the business model that's right for you. But answer the question of, "Okay, can this audience that I have make me a billionaire?"
I have one house that's going to pull off like $15,000 a month, and it's just a single house. So you'll beat it by quite a bit.
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Sam Parr | no way really what's what's the house worth | |
Nathan Barry | I bought it for 900 k that's ridiculous and | |
Sam Parr | it's damn dude that's crazy | |
Nathan Barry | 700 a night | |
Shaan Puri | where where is it like dude | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, it's in Boise, right next to the Boise State University stadium.
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Shaan Puri | So, do you get like basically football tourists? Or who’s renting this thing for $700 a night in Boise?
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Sam Parr | we're live by the way nathan we're live | |
Nathan Barry | great | |
Sam Parr | no for real | |
Nathan Barry | Who's renting it? So you get like all graduation, everyone coming in to tour the university or whatever else. Then just anyone coming into downtown. It's like a 5-bedroom, brand new construction. Sam, it actually looks somewhat similar to the place you just linked me to.
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Shaan Puri | so why have you bought | |
Nathan Barry | more like 5 shelves and the tile backsplash and all that | |
Shaan Puri | why have you bought like | |
Sam Parr | Is it 5 more in the same area? That's my question. Yeah, it's a $1,000,000 house or whatever you said, under a $1,000,000 house that's making $15,000 a month. Why don't you buy 50 of them?
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Nathan Barry | Oh, and I just bought this one, so it's not making that yet. But that's what we're looking at for the bookings for the summer.
It just did $8,000 for January, locked in, and then the summer bookings are coming in at quite a bit higher. The January ones, you know, are last minute, and Boise is slow there.
But yeah, the summer ones are coming in at $800, $900, or $1,000 a night, which is wild! We haven't even put a hot tub on it yet. I just bought a hot tub today, so we'll get that in there. I should be able to charge a little bit more, and it's going to be good.
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Shaan Puri | wow so okay we should start we should intro intro you | |
Sam Parr | Well, yeah, so you're... we're live. That might go live. This is Nathan Barry. I've known Nathan since a Gumroad meetup. Sean, I went to a Gumroad meetup in, like, for real. I'm not joking. | |
Sam Parr | 2012 that sounds | |
Nathan Barry | maybe 2013 | |
Sam Parr | 2012 2013 | |
Sam Parr | nathan was doing gumroad he had this book called authority right authority | |
Nathan Barry | yep | |
Sam Parr | And I don't even remember what the book was about, just making a living online. But then you also had graphic design stuff, and you had a really cool blog. You sold all types of stuff.
I've been homies with you for a while, and then you launched this thing called ConvertKit. I was like, "Nathan, the other thing's working, just do that."
Anyway, now it's a business that both Sean and I, I think, are...
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Shaan Puri | I didn't end up I didn't end up doing it there's some mechanics problem with the way that | |
Nathan Barry | We can get into it. We're an LLC, and it gets complicated with pass-through funds and stuff like that. But yeah, Sam, you're...
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Sam Parr | In the cool club, I'm in the cool club. Basically, his business, ConvertKit, does like $26 million in recurring revenue. It's like a Mailchimp competitor that's better and different. Their revenue is all completely live, so if you Google "ConvertKit revenue," you can see the revenue. | |
Shaan Puri | Do you regret now that your business is actually kicking ass? Do you feel like you kind of wish this wasn't all super transparent?
You know, because it's good early on. Transparency is great early on; it gets you a bunch of people interested. Then, when you start winning, you know you're giving more value than you're getting back, usually by doing that.
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Nathan Barry | Yeah, so I think it's a great idea if it's for a mission reason and a terrible idea if it's for a marketing reason.
I actually had two friends who sat me down at one point and said, "Nathan, this is an intervention. Take down your public metrics page." They were right. They had talked to competitors who were like, "Wow, this is so helpful," while scrolling through it. They said, "You know your competitors are doing this, right?" And I was like, "I know, but really it's a mission thing."
The whole mission for the company is to help creators earn a living. If we can put this public blueprint out there, it's not just a snapshot in time. You know how you've done it with companies where you're going through and you're like, "Oh, they said here they're at 10,000,000." You're trying to piece together the trajectory.
We all have the same spreadsheets, and actually doing it in real time means that someone can be like, "Okay, I'm at $50K MRR. Churn is absolutely brutal right now. Oh, I wonder what ConvertKit's churn was when they were at $50K." Right? You can go back and find the date range and be like, "Oh, in this time, here are all of their metrics. Here's how fast they're growing and everything."
So, it's like this masterclass for anyone who wants it. You have to dig in and find the data, but you can find everything about our business. My hope is that it's like breadcrumbs for every future entrepreneur who wants to recreate this.
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Shaan Puri | how much traffic does that page get | |
Nathan Barry | hopefully another industry | |
Shaan Puri | do you know | |
Nathan Barry | what's that | |
Shaan Puri | how much traffic does that page get | |
Nathan Barry | I don't know. It's not actually even our page; it's convertkit.bearmetrics.com, right? And it's not even ours. So, wow, presumably not that much traffic.
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Shaan Puri | Okay, so you're for real not using it for marketing if you don't even know how much traffic it gets.
Okay, now I believe you. But when you said the mission thing, I have a system of tuning out whenever anybody says values, mission, vision, things like that. I'm just like, by default, I do not believe anything you're about to say for the next 30 seconds.
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Sam Parr | how many how many people work there now | |
Nathan Barry | 69 | |
Sam Parr | Because when you wrote this blog post, I forget... I've been reading your blog for so long, I don't remember the years. But you wrote a blog post and you're like, "Oh, we are making, let's say, $8,000,000 a year, but we basically had $20,000 in the bank." I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was almost as extreme as that, right?
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Nathan Barry | Yeah, so the company is totally self-funded. There's no outside capital. When we hit this rapid growth, we grew from $2,000 a month to $100,000 a month in 12 months. That was just on the $50 that I'd put in. We spent all of that money.
What happened is the company was growing and profitable, but we were doing like 3% profit margins. We had gotten down to where we had, I think, like $10,000 to $12,000 in the bank. That was growing, but our expenses were increasing by so much more that our days' worth of expenses was getting shorter and shorter. That got super scary.
You guys want to know a random story? So, I think you all know Andrew Warner.
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Shaan Puri | mixergy | |
Nathan Barry | I was at a Mixergy meetup in San Francisco. He would do these Scotch nights, and after one of those, I think we were walking out of the building. He pulled me aside and said, "Dude, you seem super stressed."
I was like, "Yeah," and I kind of told him about the financial situation. Our bank balance was growing, but you know, you're paying all these people and you have no money. So I told him about that, and he said, "Okay, here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna wire you $25,000 tomorrow. If you need the money, spend it. Do whatever you want with it whenever you feel right. Pay me back, or if you don't need it, just put it in a savings account. Let it be an insurance blanket for you, and then, wow, you know, wire it back."
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Shaan Puri | at some. Did you know him well | |
Nathan Barry | I think if we had hung out in person, I would have known him a little bit better. I've been on the podcast twice before. | |
Sam Parr | what were and what were you gonna say the only thing what | |
Nathan Barry | Oh, the only thing he said is, "If you do decide to raise funding, convert that into... you know, like I'll be the first person in for that. If not, wire the phone back."
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Shaan Puri | smart move | |
Nathan Barry | okay but the thing that he said a | |
Sam Parr | good move | |
Nathan Barry | The thing that he said is, "The only thing that will piss me off on this is if you ever try to pay me interest on it. Like, don't try to make this a loan in any way."
So, I held on to the money. It sat in the bank account for like 8 or 9 months. We grew our bank account to the point that we had plenty of savings in the bank and all of that.
I wired the money back, and Andrew is forever one of those people where I'm like, "Thank you." Just because he pulled me aside and was like, "Dude, you seem stressed," and he was like, "Let me loan you a security blanket." That's one.
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Shaan Puri | Of the coolest stories I've heard, that's frankly amazing. Shout out to Andrew! We gotta have Andrew on now just for that story. We've joked about it before, but we should have him on for sure.
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Sam Parr | Because if he's done it to you, he's probably done some weird stuff like that to a bunch of people. So, he's probably had some interesting stories.
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Nathan Barry | yeah I mean he knows everyone too so he's he's | |
Shaan Puri | I'm looking at your guys' revenue chart. There's a huge spike every November. What did you do? Is it like a Black Friday deal or what? What causes this huge increase?
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Nathan Barry | we can talk about whether that's a good idea | |
Shaan Puri | or not | |
Nathan Barry | So, early on, right when you need cash, the thing that you do in SaaS is you push annual plans. This is because you have a cash flow problem.
We started pushing annual plans as part of our Black Friday sale, you know, to bring forward a bunch of that cash. We kind of just kept doing that, and then what it did is it aligned a whole bunch of...
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Shaan Puri | renewals | |
Nathan Barry | You know, annual payments right around that same time just keep getting bigger and bigger, right? Until it gets to the point where you're pulling in like $4.5 million in a single month. You're also getting all the churn at the same time. So, I don't know that... like, we're not going to keep doing that.
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Shaan Puri | By the way, there are so many things like that in business that I'm like, "We're doing this." I can't really say if it's a good idea or a bad idea. I wish I could, but we're just going to keep doing it for now.
I just kind of feel like it's going to work out, but I could totally see that we didn't need to do any of this or that this, like, long term, is hurting us more than the short term gain.
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Sam Parr | what's an example | |
Shaan Puri | Like in my D to C (direct-to-consumer) business, I was kind of thinking about this model where we drop new products all the time. Every single week, we release new products, and it's great because it causes a sales spike.
However, it also puts you on this treadmill of new products that you have to release every week. That means you have to do photoshoots for those products every week. It also means you have to have inventory, whether you sold your previous inventory or not. You have to buy new inventory.
Most brands don’t do that; they only buy new inventory when they're out of the old stuff. So even though inventory sucks out cash, you know, it's like, "Well, I'm buying it because I'm sold out." We're not even doing that.
On the other hand, when I look at this chart, it's creating a spike every single week. I'm like, "Okay, so that's good." But these other three things are bad. I don't know how to weigh these against each other because they're in different categories, they speak different languages, and they're on different time scales.
So it's just hard to know if this is a dumb idea, a bad idea, or a good idea. | |
Nathan Barry | I think the thing to look for in that is that something that served you before might not serve you now.
So, like, that served us really well for a period of time because it brought in this cash, you know? You could tell the team, "Hey, payroll is good. We're set for a long time." It gives that level of comfort.
Also, in the early days, churn is often high in a business just because you don't have very many mature accounts. So locking that in is really good.
But then, if you get to this point much later in the business, you're like, "Look, we're on accrual accounting. We don't really care. We have plenty of cash in the bank. The spike at this time doesn't make a difference."
So, just watch for those things where it's like this served the business well for a while, and it doesn't anymore.
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Sam Parr | who built the early version | |
Nathan Barry | So, I did all the design and front-end development. Then, I hired freelancers to write the Rails back end, and that went okay. It went much better when I hired a long-time friend named David to come on and build it full-time, but that was two years in. | |
Sam Parr | and you and it was making enough it was making enough money to pay him | |
Nathan Barry | No, that was where I paid him out of the $50 that I put in, which is like our savings.
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Sam Parr | Everything seems like a pretty good return. I mean, $50,000, and you're able to get that built. It turns into what it is now, or at least it got you to enough revenue to pay people. | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, and I mean, it's wild what you can do when, one, you're doing a lot of the design and code yourself. You know, so you gotta count that in the cost. But, yeah, and then you just fund it with... that makes it sound easier than it is, but you know, you fund it with growth.
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Sam Parr | simple and not easy | |
Nathan Barry | simple not easy that's right | |
Sam Parr | so sean nathan he's got this blog post called like how to how to build wealth | |
Nathan Barry | I think | |
Sam Parr | It's called "Ladder." Yep, blog post. Ladder's the wealth. He's got this actually this other great blog post called "The $1,000,000,000 Creator." I think it's called or "The $1,000,000,000 Blog." Yeah.
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Shaan Puri | let's do the $1,000,000,000 let's do the $1,000,000,000 one or I'm sorry to say I didn't know where you're going with that | |
Sam Parr | Well, I just want to say, this whole thing about transparency. So, Nathan, I don't think you publicized this, but I'm on this email list. Every month, or probably week, I think he sends out... dude, it's the craziest shit I've seen. He sends out his entire net worth, and you can see how much cash he has, how much of which stocks he owns, and how much of his angel investments. You see all of his finances.
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Shaan Puri | I gotta get on this list. This sounds amazing! I'm sure it might be on that list.
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Nathan Barry | It's all the content that I wanted other people to publish. Like, Sam, you talk about **Fat Fire**, and that's a fantastic subreddit. I just want more of those conversations.
I've written a ton about how to get from, say, $0 to $100,000 on the internet. You know, you mentioned my book, **Authority**; that's what that was about. But once you kind of get to the point where you're making $100,000, $200,000, or more online, people don't talk about what you do with that money.
Because, you know, if you do that, someone's like, "Oh, you know, there's Sam just bragging about how much money he has again," or something like that. So I was like, "Okay, I'm going to make a private newsletter." I just charge people $100, just to filter out anyone who's going to complain about it, I guess, or say that I'm bragging.
Then I decided I'm going to write about all the stuff that I wish I knew when I made my first $250 online.
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Sam Parr | The way that I describe your blog or that email is, it's kind of like face tattoos and cornrows. I think it's super cool when other people have them, but I don't want it. Yeah. | |
Sam Parr | you know not not for me but I I I it's cool when others have them | |
Nathan Barry | there's only 200 people on that list so it's it's a small group right now | |
Sam Parr | dude I don't know man but sean what was your question about well | |
Shaan Puri | I wanted to kind of walk through the framework here.
So, you have this blog post that's kind of like... I know you worked on that for a while, shaping your thinking here.
Then we also have Sam, who's somewhat bearish on the idea of the creator economy. He thinks it's kind of overhyped, over-buzzworded.
And you're Mr. Creator Economy in a way, Nathan. So, I think this might be good, but let's walk through it.
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Sam Parr | I don't think our opinions are opposites by the way I would I would say probably our opinions are not opposites yeah | |
Shaan Puri | For the sake of argument, let's just walk through this. You basically have these four rules for building a $1,000,000,000 audience.
So, I guess first, why did you even want to do this? What got you interested in this? And then let's walk through the four rules.
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Nathan Barry | Yeah, so the article asks a question, which is the whole premise of it: **What is the most profitable place to direct attention?**
Everything we do, right? We're recording a podcast now. Whatever you're doing on TikTok, or if you're a movie star, everything else, right? You have attention, and brands want it. They're willing to sponsor all of this stuff.
So it's like, okay, you have the opportunity to direct that attention somewhere. What's the most profitable way to do that long term?
Because you look at people, you know, maybe who are taking sponsorships—like $5,000 to sponsor a newsletter or $500 for a sponsored Instagram post or anything like that—and that's actually not that profitable.
Then, when you dive in, you learn that the most profitable thing to do is to create your own product and to drive that attention to something where you actually build equity long term.
So it's like a longer article talking about that. But like the richest movie stars, you know, take Jessica Alba, for example. She has made a lot of money from movies, but the bulk of her wealth is from starting a company and being the spokesperson for her own company.
Then my other favorite example would be Ryan Reynolds, who, you know, is doing ads for other people and probably getting paid $1,000,000 here, $10,000,000 there, you know, that kind of thing.
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Nathan Barry | He goes, "Forget that! I'm going to buy my own companies with Mint Mobile and Aviation Gin, and I'm gonna be my own spokesperson."
So, I don't get cash; I get equity. You just watch this process of people doing it over and over again.
That's actually my hypothesis with ConvertKit, right? I have attention on the internet through running a blog and a newsletter and all of that.
How do I want to monetize it? Sponsorships, eBooks, membership... a bunch of things. I'm like, "Nope! I want to monetize it through ConvertKit, building a SaaS company."
That's my version of the $1,000,000,000 creator. So, that's the whole premise of the article, and it's like...
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Shaan Puri | That's the whole idea.
So, okay, rule number 1 is you have to build more than a personal brand. What does that mean? You give the example of Jessica Alba or Mark from Primal Kitchen.
So, what is the nuance here? It's like, it's not just your face or your name. You need to actually create a brand around your lifestyle or your interests. Is that it?
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Sam Parr | By the way, Sean, Primal Kitchen is the sugar-free ketchup company that I like.
So, this guy named Mark, he kind of looks like the 65-year-old version of me, but like even more jacked. He has a health blog and he starts selling ketchup. He sells that for like $300 million.
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Nathan Barry | Yeah, so I mean what Mark did with his blog, which was called "Mark's Daily Apple," was significant. It was like the leading paleo health blog in that space. A blog like that, you know, when he was doing this from 2006 to 2010, you could make $1,000,000 a year off of that blog, and he was right.
But you play that forward, and it's all about him, all about his name, right? His name is in the name of the site. However, I mean, you can build substantial wealth that way. What he did instead is he started Primal Kitchen. He kickstarted this whole brand by saying, "I have the most popular site in the space. Let me make these paleo-friendly ketchup, mayonnaise, that kind of thing." And then he goes...
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Shaan Puri | know a huge audience was do you know how big is how much traffic he had at the time or | |
Sam Parr | it it wasn't huge huge like he was no bigger than ours | |
Nathan Barry | yeah a 100,000 subscribers in the email list maybe | |
Shaan Puri | a 100,000 wasn't kind of like trusted audience size to kick kick off this yeah | |
Nathan Barry | You gotta remember, audiences were a lot smaller, like even just in 2015 or 2012, that kind of time frame. But yeah, then he sold it to Kraft for $200,000,000. You can't sell a blog; a blog doesn't sell for $200,000,000, you know?
The crazy thing is, he still owns the audience. The thing that kickstarted this whole product, he still owns. He can sell off that whole brand. Talking to him at a conference, you know, he's just on to the next thing, figuring out what he wants to do next. He didn't have to sell his name and a whole identity with it, and Kraft is so thrilled with their purchase.
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Shaan Puri | Kylie Cosmetics is probably the biggest one that people know about because it has tons of attention through Instagram, TikTok, and whatever.
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Nathan Barry | yep | |
Shaan Puri | The TV show, whatever. Instead of just saying, "Hey, you can pay me," people used to say, "Wow, you have to pay $25,000 for a tweet from Kim Kardashian." Then that was $25,000, and it went up to like $250,000, then $2,000,000 for an Instagram post. Is it $2,000,000? It got up to that range where it was like either hundreds of thousands or low millions to get an actual endorsement post from one of them.
So then, you know, cool, you can make a lot of money doing that. You're right, you can stack up a quarter of a million dollars at a time. But Kylie Cosmetics was a $1,000,000,000 brand. So it was like, well, who wants to pay me to promote their products? Well, it's mostly like skincare products, makeup products, or for Kim Kardashian, it's her shapewear.
You know, like Khloe Kardashian, it was like fashion or whatever. So Khloe launches True American jeans, and Kim Kardashian launches, I think it's called... what was it? Shapes? Skims? Is it like the shapewear brand?
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Sam Parr | dude sean you are on top of it keep going | |
Shaan Puri | Kylie... Kylie Cosmetics, Kanye... Yeezy shoes, right? Lars, like, they all turned to say, "Whoever is the most willing advertiser actually becomes my competitor."
I'm going to launch my own brand, my own equity, and have my own equity in this thing. There's a guy in the NBA who gets made fun of for this, which is this guy, LaVar Ball. I don't know if you guys know this guy, but basically, he has three sons. All three wanted to make it to the NBA.
This guy is this loudmouth, and they got a reality show around them because they're sort of like the basketball version of the Kardashians. There are three brothers and a kind of overbearing parent who is architecting their business strategy.
When one of the guys was going to get picked second in the draft, Nike offered him a contract, and Adidas did too. Instead, he created Big Baller Brand, you know, Triple B. He created his own shoe line, and like, the shoes kind of sucked. He didn't have the full business plan, and people were making fun of him for, like, "Oh wow, you turned down a guaranteed $10 million from Nike to launch this thing."
$10 million a year or whatever. It's like, actually, that was the right move. Now, maybe his execution was slightly poor, but that was actually the right move. A lot of these NBA players would have been better served had they done that themselves.
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Sam Parr | well how's it going now the shoe thing | |
Shaan Puri | So, the shoe thing is not going well. Basically, the guy they had running it was kind of stealing from them, so they fired him. That was like a black mark on it.
The second brother never made it to the NBA, so that was a bit of an issue. The first brother kind of underperformed his potential at times.
Actually, now that I think about it, it would have worked because the youngest brother, the one who was kind of like a... a "fuck boy" a little bit, you know, he had a diamond grill and a Lamborghini at 15. He was kind of off the reservation.
He actually turned out to be the best one. He's a star player, and if they had built it properly around him, it probably would have done a lot better.
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Sam Parr | so I nathan you'll get a kick out of this so like 3 or 4 weeks ago we did this thing where we said we're gonna give 5 g's to 1 or 23 people who take our clips download it post it on tiktok and get views there's this kid who did it and I don't remember how many views he got but like our hashtag I think got 30,000,000 views in like 2 weeks and this guy accounted for a lot of them and multiple of his videos got a 1,000 or sorry a 1,000,000 views one video got so big that we drove 35,000 new members to the subreddit fat fire and they like that and they complained and I was like reached out to this kid I'm like who are you and he replies back with like [email protected] or over to something like that or dotu or whatever it is and I'm like wait dude are you in college and like he calls me and I facetime with him and he's in his dorm room and he's young he's in still in college he's in his university thing and and he's really cocky not in a bad way but he's like he's got chutzpah and he goes man I knew I was gonna do this I wanted to prove to you guys that I could do it I want you to pay me money to do this now and I'm gonna do this for other people we're gonna change the media game and I'm gonna raise money and I was like okay hold on dude hear me out and he goes I'm gonna I'm gonna go raise money for this thing do you wanna invest I go bro listen you do not wanna raise money for this here's what you should do you are so talented at this that don't raise money for this but get it big and start launching other stuff on top of it and if you wanna raise money raise money for that stuff and own all he he owns this thing called like I forget what it's called future but he's got like 8 handles now that have like a 1,000,000 something follow followers I'm like no no no don't raise money for this thing man own that forever and that's your piggy bank and your audience raise money for like this other thing that you wanna do and funnel it through there but don't sell that thing because I raised a little bit of money for my thing which was like that and I I don't regret it because I got the outcome that I wanted but I do regret it because it definitely hit you're massively handicapped because of it | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, well, and that's... I think that's such a good point. Because you can have that platform to launch whatever you want. In the same way that, you know, Mark Sisson can use his platform to then go launch the next thing, right? He probably has contracts that say he can't compete in the exact same space, but he could do a fitness thing or he could do something else, right? You have the Conor McGregor... What's that?
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Shaan Puri | I was going to give an example. Conor McGregor is doing this pretty brilliantly in the UFC.
So, like, the UFC gets knocked a lot because they have low fighter pay. The percentage of revenue that they give to their fighters is way lower than other sports. The NBA is 50%, the NFL is like 50%, and the UFC is like, I don't know, 15 or 20%.
So the fighters go out there, they get their face beaten in, and they'll make $20,000 off that fight, or $40,000, or $80,000. Then they only get to do that 2 or 3 times a year. It's a pretty brutal sport for low pay.
What Conor McGregor did was, instead of selling the attention and trying to make money as his kind of service fee, he created a brand around literally every part of his lifestyle.
He's like, "Alright, this thing's going to get me famous, but then, okay, what am I famous for?" People like my suits at the press conferences. Cool, I'm launching a suit brand.
Okay, I'm Irish, so I'm going to launch an Irish whiskey. Irish whiskey, I think, just sold for... I don't know if you know Sandals.
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Sam Parr | he walked 100,000,000 yeah like he walked away with a 100 | |
Shaan Puri | Exactly. Then he's like, "Cool, I'm super fit because I'm a UFC fighter. My body's amazing. Here's my P90X program. It's called McGregor Fast. You can buy my program and subscribe to that, and you can get fit with me."
Oh, you're getting fit? And just what else do I do? I recover. Okay, here's a recovery spray that I spray on my leg. It makes my leg recover faster after workouts.
The guy is literally just selling every piece of his lifestyle as an independent brand. You know, I think at one point he was thinking about launching a sports betting exchange. It's like, "What is the best business? Who wants to pay me?"
Oh, DraftKings wants to pay me. Maybe instead of DraftKings, it's McGregor Kings now, and I will launch a competitor.
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Sam Parr | he just he just opened up a bar called the black ford | |
Shaan Puri | Exactly! Oh, you know, I had good success with whiskey. What else do we do? Irish stouts?
Okay, so he bought a bar. Not that the bar is that good; it's like a bar in his hometown. Your bar's not gonna make a ton of money, but then he used that bar as the backdrop to film him creating a stout.
Now he's gonna sell a stout as a new alcoholic beverage brand, and it's kind of amazing. The guy's gonna become a billionaire, and fighting is gonna be the lowest part of his income stream, is my guess, which is insane.
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Sam Parr | well I bet you I bet you mcconner conor mcgregor I bet you he goes | |
Shaan Puri | for it well he might make a 1,000,000,000 he might lose a 1,000,000,000 | |
Sam Parr | I think he could. Nathan, you're worth... did you reveal the valuation of your company?
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Nathan Barry | we we raised it 200,000,000 | |
Sam Parr | Okay, so let's just... I don't know what the facts are, but let's just say you own 90%. So you're worth $180,000,000. Do you think that you could ever spend through that?
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Nathan Barry | I would have to radically change my lifestyle | |
Sam Parr | I I don't think | |
Sam Parr | is that enough | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, oh, that's so much more than enough. I think I spend like $200 a year. So if that gives you an idea, if you set aside the things like when I'm not buying assets...
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Shaan Puri | that's your burn that's your your actual burn | |
Nathan Barry | It's like **$200** a year. So, yeah, it would take a lot to spend through that.
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Sam Parr | so do what do we let's go let's go to this wealth ladder thing well I I I saw that | |
Nathan Barry | there's a. | |
Sam Parr | Oh go | |
Nathan Barry | So, what Sean was saying about the trend among all of these people is that this relates to rule number two of selling products: it's not about attention. That's the flip side.
Conor McGregor is a perfect example of this because everyone's expecting people to sell attention. That's the equivalent of the NASCAR logos plastered all over the car. You're like, "Great, Conor's doing that," just like every celebrity.
You expect that every influencer is going to do the same. However, the wealthiest people are the ones who say, "Great, I will not do that. I'm going to promote my own product."
Conor has the extreme example of saying, "I'm going to do ten of these," while most people are like, "Let me do one or two." But that's where you're going to build real wealth. | |
Shaan Puri | And then let's just hit the other rules real quick.
**Rule number 3:** Drive higher customer value through recurring or repeat purchases.
You'd rather have a product that has a repeat purchase rate versus a one-off. That's the big idea there.
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Nathan Barry | Yep, yeah. And that's the thing. If you just look at the most valuable brands, you see that a lot of them are selling a product that someone buys many times. | |
Shaan Puri | Right, yeah. So, you know, if my first million created an idea journal, it's probably not going to have a super high review purchase rate. This is because, you know, one journal will last you a long time.
Versus if we made, you know, the Pure Money Deodorant. Pure Money Deodorant is something that you would go through every two months. Then that consumable is going to be worth more than, you know, so product selection is important here.
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Nathan Barry | Yep, and so even just going back to the ketchup example, right? You know you're going through ketchup every month or every couple of months. You know that’s way better than something that lasts forever. | |
Shaan Puri | Right, billionaire's ketchup. Great!
Okay, so then the last one: **choose a better business model**.
So, what are you pointing out here with "choose a better business model"?
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Nathan Barry | yeah so there's a couple things in this one is well I'm using the example of vonni hari who is the food babe so she had information products business she's selling cookbooks meal plans all of that and then she teamed up with a friend of mine derek halpern who was also in kind of that online business space and they went and made like a health supplements company and so it's completely different they've made the switch from you know that business model into selling this product that people are buying on a recurring basis that you know the brand can be acquired but then I think the other example that's interesting I love listening to andrew wilkinson on the show and you know he did his whole thing his whole thing is using a very cash flow positive business right in metalab of they're doing agency work honestly it's a very profitable business but it's not valued that high in the market and so he's like okay I'm gonna take low to medium quality revenue and use it to go buy really high quality revenue you know because agencies they're not as recurring they're not high multiple if you wanna sell the business so so it's like great I'm gonna go buy software companies or start software companies you know and so I'm gonna trade in you know one set of revenue for another and then you see this a lot in software where someone will launch 2 like you'll have 2 versions of the same tool one's like the wordpress plugin version where it gets it done and all of that but none of those really turn into like substantial companies and so the ones that made it are like optinmonster where they built a wordpress plugin it was okay made 1,000,000 of dollars but like it's not valued like a software company whereas when they go and rebuild like sayid balke rebuild optinmonster as a saas platform added more features you know they can charge a different pricing model all of that and and then it's really valuable right and you get to raise money at silicon valley valuations you get to sell the company at those multiples even though it's like fundamentally accomplishing the same system goal for you | |
Shaan Puri | who I think left money on the table you named 2 of them I have a third actually you you might have named all 3 | |
Nathan Barry | okay | |
Shaan Puri | So, you talked about Ramit Sethi, who you think is making around $10,000,000 in revenue selling high-end courses. His audience is focused on personal finance. He pointed out that at a time when he had a large audience and trust in personal finance, he was advocating for a philosophy of low-fee index fund style investing—set it and forget it—and saving a certain portion of your revenue.
He could have built Wealthfront, which just got valued at $1,400,000,000 yesterday or something like that. Wealthfront is a robo-advisor doing just that. So instead of selling courses, he could have built a software product and potentially left some value on the table.
Another example is Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss makes a ton of money on sponsorships and has also made a significant amount through investing in the right startups because of his brand name. But could he have done what Joe Rogan did with Onnit supplements? I think Tim Ferriss has a huge trusted audience. If he said, "Look, I tried every supplement and here are my issues with them," he could have launched products like paleo ketchup, nootropic supplements, protein powder, or whatever else.
Given the size and trust of his audience, I think that could have been a $500,000,000 business. But it seems like he didn't go that path. So, what do you think of that? Oh, the third was Marie Forleo.
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Sam Parr | 3rd | |
Shaan Puri | I think you had her in here, and I think you pointed out two things.
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Sam Parr | one is | |
Shaan Puri | She builds everything in her name instead of creating brands that can be dissociated from her. The product is her telling you content, her selling you time and consulting, or whatever else. It's her selling you a course versus her creating a product based on her belief system. You trust her, so you think this product is going to work for you.
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Sam Parr | But listen to this, Sean. You're, well, you're not exactly, but you're criticizing these people. You're doing the exact same thing.
So, you've got this big audience of people who like and trust you. They shockingly trust you and do what you say. But you're building this other thing that people are begging to know what it is.
Do you think that you should follow your own advice here?
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Shaan Puri | oh totally you know that's why I like this article I think it's a it's an eye opener for it pieces together a bunch of like anecdotes and philosophies and by the time you read it all the way through you're like yeah of course of of course I agree with this so I did it in a way with the fund so for example podcast podcast ad revenue I think our 1st year I made like 70,000 or something like that in podcast ads it wasn't much it was like a very the the value of the audience I felt was bigger than the the value of the trust in the audience was bigger than the the ad revenue and so I bet on that I was like okay well what if I raise the fund from these people who have been listening and I'm not gonna take any I'm not gonna do any pitch meetings I'm not gonna make a presentation I'm just gonna say hey if you trust me from this podcast and you wanna invest alongside me in startups you can and so now that fund is like an $8,000,000 a year investment vehicle so if you just take the math on that right you get 2% of that in management fee okay that's not that much but then you get 20% of carry so 20% carry means you're basically getting 1,600,000 of start up equity that you're investing per year for free so 70,000 in ads versus 1,600,000 in start up equity of of which I get to pick the start ups and I think those start ups can you know what if that's 5 x in the next you know 7 to 10 years so that means each year I'm getting something like $5,000,000 a year of value out of a product created from the podcast so that's an example of doing it example of not doing it is I do a course and the reality is I do the course just because I a I like teaching and b I like the instant cash flow from that because I can go buy stupid shit with it so for example I'll I'll like I wasn't I stopped teaching my course because I just got busy doing other shit and then I really wanted to go like do some random nft speculation and I was like I feel stupid doing this with my money what if I just like did a course for you know 2 weeks and then that let me go buy a bored ape and a cryptopunk and whatever else okay yeah that sounds more fun and so I'm like yeah I'm down to you know teach successions to do that that that that seems like a good trade in my head mentally but I would say that's not actually a good use of time and then the new thing we're building the new product is kind of in that boat right the milk road isn't called sean's crypto newsletter it specifically has a new brand name and it has like staff around it and it's a product that if it works can be big and it'll be supercharged or kind of initially initially distributed by people who already follow me and like my content | |
Sam Parr | And then the second criticism, which Nathan can address, is like... and maybe Ramit would say this: "Well, I like blogging, and I don't know anything about starting a fintech company."
What's your reply to that, Nathan?
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Nathan Barry | Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great answer. All these people who I lightly pick on in my article are all friends.
So, that's one where you have to choose the business model that's right for you. But to answer the question of, "Okay, can this audience that I have make me a billionaire?" I'm trying to have as many examples as possible. If that's the outcome that you want, or maybe it's not a billionaire, right? Because you raised money or something else.
But getting on that $100,000 or $1,000,000 type scale, then it's like, "Okay, well, here's the framework that has to happen." If you're saying, "Look, we list people who have amazing businesses," right? They're in complete control of their time, making $1,000,000 a year. You know, absolutely no complaints there.
So, this is all based on the case study of, "How would you do it?" Actually, one of my favorite examples is Michael Hyatt. I used him as an example in this article, and he replied. He sent me an email right after it and said, "Hey, we actually discovered the exact same thing. Personal brand entirely. We're selling digital products, we're very tied to our email list, we're doing sponsors and stuff like that. We realized, 'Oh, this business is going to reach some limits.'"
So, he then built out all these sub-businesses. They built out a journal product, you know, other physical products, and realized, "Okay, how can we take what we have now and use it to leverage other independent brands and kickstart and launch them?"
It's fascinating to use someone as an example and have them come back and be like, "You're spot on in describing our business, but you're actually two years behind. We realized the same thing, we're fixing it, and now everyone will see the result a little while from now."
So, yeah, if people want this path, that's the way to go about it.
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Sam Parr | how big is this how many notebooks does this guy sell | |
Nathan Barry | I don't know that I have the numbers. I'm trying to think about what he put in the article, but his other products are now bigger than all the things that we know him for. So, it's in the tens of millions of dollars.
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Sam Parr | that's crazy alright what were we saying sean | |
Shaan Puri | I was going to jump to the **ladders of wealth** because I think this is another nice framework that you have. Some people may have heard of this concept, but I just want to lay out the fast version, and then we can go into whatever's interesting from this.
You have this image of a series of ladders. It's not just one ladder that you go up and up; it's basically like this: if you choose a certain method of wealth creation, your ladder can be this high. But if you choose another method, it can go one rung higher, or two rungs higher, or even four rungs higher, depending on which one you choose.
So here's how it works. The lowest ladder, the smallest ladder, is selling time for money. This means having a job. Then there's your own service business. This might be like an agency where you're charging by the project. You have some clients, and you charge an hourly rate. It doesn't matter if you're making logos for a company or if you're a lawyer; you're actually in the same boat. You have a service business with clients, and you charge an hourly rate.
Then there's the product side: **productized services**. Let me give an example of productized services. | |
Nathan Barry | So, the example would be, let's say I charge $100 an hour to redo the copywriting on your website. I'm doing that, or I say, for $1,000 one time, you can buy it with a credit card. I will go and rewrite your site or write you one whole landing page.
There are a couple of really important things here.
One, the purchase is being made without me talking to you. If I'm charging $100 an hour, we'll probably have a conversation while we're planning.
The second thing is it's prepackaged, so you know exactly what you're buying.
Then, the third thing is that the time and money are totally disconnected. If I get better and better, or if I hire people, any of that, right? I'm not having to sit there for 10 hours and do it.
So, there's a bunch of these skills that they have to learn to do the product by service.
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Shaan Puri | An exam... a simple example. I think Ryan Bighleman came on the pod a long time ago and he talked about drop servicing, which was a version of this.
So, the example he gave is like, there are these products where you pay $30 and I'll draw a picture of you. You give me a picture of yourself, and I'll draw you as a Simpsons character. Or, like, you can send this as a gift. If somebody loves the Simpsons, you can give me a photo of them, and I'll draw it as a Simpsons character.
You get it? It has all the elements you talked about: self-serve. You come in, it has a predefined price, you just click a button and pay. You get a defined product out of it, so we're both clear on the bargain.
And then, third, you don't know how long it takes me, you don't know how much it costs me, and I don't have to do the work myself.
With a lot of these character services, it just gets piped to a person in the Philippines who's an artist. They take the gig, they submit it, they get $7, and the service keeps whatever, $23, and it's all done.
So that's like an example of a productized service. And by the way, isn't there like a Facebook group called Productized Service? Who runs that? There's a guy running that.
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Sam Parr | it's pretty interesting yeah we talked about him yeah green name | |
Shaan Puri | do you know | |
Sam Parr | what I mean role greenfelt maybe or something like that | |
Shaan Puri | So, what he does is he has this Facebook group, and the reason I like it is that it's so niche, but it's actually pretty valuable if you're in that niche.
He has this Facebook group called "Productized Services" or something like that—"Productized Businesses." What he was doing was showing an example. He'd say, "Oh, look, this is a real estate agent. Before, here's how it used to work: here's their page, here's their face, call them up, become a client, blah blah blah."
And he's like, "Or, sorry, that's not a good example. I make—I design websites. I can code anything. You can hire me as a freelancer."
Then he changed it to a productized service. For example, "You're a real estate agent, you need a website for your company. I make real estate agent websites. Come here, pick one of the six templates, push go, and I'll give you a website. I'll charge you a fixed fee of $250 or $500 to give you that website."
So, it's basically a way of productizing a service.
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Sam Parr | You know what? The best name that I've ever heard for that is Jack Butcher, who's our friend. He has this course, and it's beautiful. It's called "Build Once, Sell Twice."
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Nathan Barry | so good | |
Sam Parr | it's such a good name | |
Shaan Puri | I I took the course yeah | |
Sam Parr | well did you love it | |
Shaan Puri | Yeah, I loved it just because everything Jack does is done so well. You know, he could write me a birthday card and I would be like, "Wow, I love birthday cards!" Now it's like, do I really love birthday cards or do I just love Jack Butcher? I think I just love Jack Butcher, actually.
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Nathan Barry | His ability to take something and distill it down to the absolute essence is remarkable. It's like building one product and selling it twice.
It's about selling products, you know, where you're saying, "Okay, I can make this thing a single time and then sell it as many times as I want."
Whichever one talks about the upside of that, like, "Oh, this is going to be amazing," right? I can build this and sell it a whole lot.
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Sam Parr | bunch of times no one talks about | |
Nathan Barry | The downside is that it's so freaking hard to do the first one, you know? Whereas if I'm building a one-off thing, like using websites for example, like, "Okay, I'm supposed to build a website for Sam. He's paying me $2,000." I build this out; it's not that hard. I can use my skills to do it.
The product version is like building a website builder, you know? That's incredibly hard. So you have this trough for a long time where you're not going to make money in the short term, but the leverage is incredible.
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Sam Parr | how old are you now | |
Nathan Barry | 31 | |
Sam Parr | So, you're 31. As long as I've known you— we've known each other since we were both like 23 or 24— you've always pretty much been the same. You were pretty calm and very patient.
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Shaan Puri | I would say | |
Sam Parr | Patient would probably be the best word to describe you. There have been a lot of times I remember, in 2014 or something like that, I didn't have much money. But I hollered at my really rich friend and I was like, "Man, Nathan is doing like $100 a month in revenue. This thing's gonna be big! You should try to invest in that. Maybe I could broker a deal."
If I did that, then I met you. You probably had a ton of people who were trying to buy the company for a life-changing amount of money. You've probably had loads of other opportunities.
So my question is, how have you stayed pretty calm and also incredibly patient throughout all this? Patience is something I struggle with. Your Sean was telling you about how he launches a new drop every week. I think that’s rooted in the idea that we need the numbers to go up this week. You get caught in that mindset. I've done the same thing where I'm like, "But it's not growing now, and I need it to."
So how have you been so patient and long-term focused?
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Nathan Barry | Well, I think part of it is personality. You're right; the words **patient** and **relentless** are probably two things you can use to describe me, both back then and now.
A lot of the ideas in some of these articles, or that I try to write about, really focus on building this one thing. An analogy I like is **strip malls versus skyscrapers**.
Let's say we're getting into real estate development and we've got a piece of land. You're trying to decide, "Okay, what should we build on it?" You want to make money quickly, so you build a little office building or something. You might have a Radio Shack there, and now you're making a little bit of cash flow coming in.
You want to expand, so you build another addition. Now we've got a Subway, and we've built it out into a little strip mall or shopping center. Each time we're expanding horizontally, we're using up our land.
This is similar to launching a new product. The version of this is the blogger, podcaster, or someone who's like, "I've got my eBook, my membership site, my whatever other thing that I'm doing." I keep adding, and each one makes a little bit of money.
My approach to everything is the **skyscraper model**. I'm like, "I'm going to do one thing, and I'm going to keep pouring everything into that and just keep going taller and taller."
ConvertKit is my attempt at a skyscraper. In the "$1,000,000,000 Creator" article, it's all about people I think who are building those skyscrapers.
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Sam Parr | You've not always done that. Actually, I think that's a good strategy. But I would say it's pretty cool that you've not always done that, and I'll give you an example.
The reason why it's cool is because you're flawed. You definitely have... you're incredibly patient and have long-term thinking. Maybe it's not rooted in this, but there are some examples. For example, you've done a bunch of book launches. You've launched like 8 or 9 things that have sucked. You did this great Twitter thread where you... well, no, you did this Twitter... | |
Shaan Puri | I I go spirit sucked | |
Sam Parr | yeah he goes here's the 9 things that I've created that were horrible | |
Shaan Puri | no it was like damn | |
Sam Parr | he had a I I don't know if you used the word suck maybe you said fail | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, flopped or something like that. So, this is something else, right? We all want to jump in and build the most perfect product, but you can't do that because there are all of these skills that you have to learn.
That's the essence of this "Ladders of Wealth Creation" article. Business and building wealth is the combination of like a thousand little skills. If you try to do it all at once, you know, you're going to fail.
So, that's like in these ladders. The one that I'm trying to make is that, you know, I put marketplaces and social networks at the top of the hardest ladder. Just below that is SaaS. If you think about the number of skills that you have to know in order to do that...
Like, Sam, what was the first product you sold online?
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Sam Parr | I well, there's two. It was liquor, so I sold alcohol on the internet. Then I also created a guide on how to find a roommate in San Francisco.
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Nathan Barry | Okay, so that guide... do you remember as you were trying to figure out how to collect payments for that? Or like how to put together a page that would sell it?
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Shaan Puri | like it was at the gumroad meetup | |
Sam Parr | Yeah, I ended up using Gumroad because it was so stressful. I couldn't figure it out. I was like, "Well, I remember going to Shopify. I'm like, well, does Shopify let you sell PDFs? How does that work?" So, yeah, I remember those things, right?
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Nathan Barry | You're trying to figure out how to collect money on the internet. This is something that you have to learn. Now, we could rattle off a whole bunch of ways, right? But someone starting out and saying, "Hey, I want to get into this," they don't know how to collect money on the internet. They don't know how to write headlines. They don't know how to collect email subscribers or why that even matters, right?
All of these things are important. So, I think the best way to do it is to learn through a bunch of these other little products. That was basically what you're seeing all the way along with the eBooks and everything else: me learning all of the skills that ended up culminating in being able to build.
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Sam Parr | a conversion yeah that's fair | |
Nathan Barry | And then the other thing is, if I say I only focus on ConvertKit, that's not fully true because I like to have contrast in my life. I think that's something that helps.
We started off, you know, riffing on some real estate stuff. The reason that I like it is because you spend all your time sitting in front of a computer. Doing something tangible, like Airbnb or something in the real world, is the opposite. I get to actually go see a real property. I get to visit in person; it's a totally different experience.
My friend Sean Blanc says, "If you work with your mind, you should rest with your hands." I like that idea of just doing something that's the opposite.
I think if you give yourself these little indulgences, like buying a house and Airbnb-ing it, or starting a one-off paid newsletter that you run on autopilot, or Sean, what you're doing where you run out and make a course and then you're like, "Okay, that was fun," I think that can be a creative outlet that then helps you focus on the main thing rather than saying, "Oh, I'm gonna go create 10 main things."
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Sam Parr | When you've been creating ConvertKit, let's say that either you've sold the company and you still want to do interesting things, or you're 21 or 25 years old and you want to start something.
What interesting opportunities or problems that need to be solved have you discovered where you're like, "I can't do that now, but it'd be pretty cool if someone could totally get into [the blank] and do [blank]?"
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Nathan Barry | Yeah, okay, this is an honest but terrible answer to your question.
Because then I... because I also did it, right? As we were doing email marketing, you know, and running the newsletters for like James Clear, Tim Ferriss, and everyone else, the thing that I wanted to do was get into commerce.
I thought, "Okay, we have this whole side of it, right? We're sending all the emails and have the connection to the fans. Now I want to build the credit card processing, and I want to get a cut of everything that they sell."
So then I realized, like, oh... and that was always the answer. Actually, if someone was like, "If you weren't doing ConvertKit, what would you do?" I always said I'd go start a Gumroad competitor.
And then the nice thing is there's that synergy there. So it's like, okay, I went and started a Gumroad competitor called ConvertKit Commerce. It's in the same product, so it's both a realistic answer and probably not very satisfying for you because it's not totally different.
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Sam Parr | Gumroad has been around for a long time now. Up until recently, they pretty much had never done anything to change it, and no one is competing with them.
But there's a downside: it doesn't make that much money. I actually don't know what it makes anymore, but a couple of years ago, he would tweet out his revenue. It was really hard to build a business where he was making like 4% of someone's $10 PDF, you know what I mean?
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Shaan Puri | it was | |
Sam Parr | it was well and so that's why you | |
Nathan Barry | Have to build a better business model, right? So if you look at something and say, "How could we improve that business model?" The thing that I saw in that is like, "Okay, what if we had another product alongside it that we sold?"
For ConvertKit, we make money off of your email subscription. Now I have these two things that go hand in hand. The commerce side is really good because now, for every one of our customers who is selling products, we're able to make a little cut of that. They don't feel like they're paying us anything extra because it's just a bit of the credit card processing fee.
This also reduces our churn. Anyone who is selling through ConvertKit Commerce is now being paid by ConvertKit rather than the other way around. We saw a radically lower churn.
So I'd argue that Gumroad by itself, or the Gumroad competitor that I wanted to start, by itself, you're right, it's not that good of a business model. But when you pair it with ConvertKit and make the creative marketing platform, this is turning into a sales pitch, but you get the idea I'm trying to make.
It's the combination of those two things that then makes it a fantastic business model. You have to look at, "Okay, this is working. I want to go after this in whatever space it is." Then take a step back and say, "Okay, what are the flaws in the business model? What other products do I pair it with? What other audience do I target it against?" Any of those things actually makes it a compelling business instead of just an average business.
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Sam Parr | Are you still hands-on with ConvertKit? I know you're the CEO, but do you have someone helping you run it, or are you still the guy in charge?
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Nathan Barry | No, I'm way too hands-on. The thing that people don't tell you in startups is that the growth you see is a whole bunch of stacked S-curves. You know, you figure out things that work, and it takes off. Then it levels out, and you’ve got to figure out the next plateau or the next stage of growth.
I'm very hands-on. We've had a few executives leave over the last year—just a lot of change. So, I'm completely in it, recruiting new executives and working with the team to design the next version of the product.
So yeah, I'm not the case study of what you should do for the perfect execution on...
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Shaan Puri | you're not the 4 hour work week | |
Nathan Barry | I I'm not the 4 hour work week | |
Sam Parr | Do you grind? I mean, I know you have like 18 kids. No?
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Nathan Barry | 3 yeah it would kids | |
Sam Parr | I know, I just... because as long as I remember you, I think your oldest is like... you had your oldest when you were young. So I always would tease, "What do you have, like 40 kids now?"
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Sam Parr | because you're all you're all with that couple so | |
Sam Parr | Are you grinding right now, or do you have a 40-hour work week?
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Nathan Barry | It's right now a lot more than a 40-hour work week. But it's interesting trying to structure that around kids, you know? It's a lot of waking up early.
This weekend, we're headed out for our team retreat, meeting everyone in person. So I'm leaving Saturday morning. This morning, when my kids woke up early, we went out of the house and spent 2 or 3 hours together before I knew I was going to work all day and then be gone all next week.
So yeah, I don't work a crazy amount, but at least 50 to 55 hours a week is probably what I aim for. I don't know if that counts as grinding, but it's definitely not relaxing.
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Sam Parr | it's in the middle | |
Nathan Barry | yeah | |
Sam Parr | in the middle I think of grinding and not grinding what do you think sean | |
Shaan Puri | I think it's great. You know, I think ConvertKit... I'm a user, so I complained to Nathan all the time. I'm like, "I'm paying too much for ConvertKit." He's like...
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Nathan Barry | you do complain about that | |
Shaan Puri | and he was good | |
Nathan Barry | and I just. Out how much money you make | |
Shaan Puri | Yeah, he was like, "But you know, emails are making you all this money." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I just feel like email is free and this should be free." I was like, "Can I just get this for free?"
He's very, very patient with me and was sort of like, "You know, let me know what you think."
I told Ben, "Go find what we should use instead of ConvertKit." Ben kind of searched for a couple of products and then he was like, "Well, you know, they're all kind of worse, but there are some cheaper options. You want worse but cheaper?"
I was like, "Oh, fuck, I gotta choose worse but cheaper."
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Sam Parr | wait what's your what's your what's your bill every month | |
Shaan Puri | I think I pay like $400 a month maybe more | |
Sam Parr | I don't even know that's what you're and how much money do you make a month | |
Shaan Puri | Well, see, it's not about that, right? Like, it's more... I feel like those are two separate things. Because the email directly doesn't make me that much money. It's like...
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Sam Parr | got it | |
Shaan Puri | Through the email, I build the audience. Then, through the audience, if I launch a product or a course or whatever, that makes a bunch of money. But that's separate work I have to go do. It's a separate set of costs that go into that.
So we actually did consider switching. I kind of respected that Nathan wasn't just like, "Whatever it takes to stay, here you go, free." I was like, "Okay, the fact that he didn't do that tells me he knows the value of his thing."
As much as I hate that I'm not getting this free discount or whatever, I respect that. So, I stuck with it.
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Sam Parr | nathan are you mormon | |
Nathan Barry | no I'm not | |
Sam Parr | dude you get that mormon energy man hoffman | |
Shaan Puri | do you hear that | |
Nathan Barry | I mostly just hear it from you sam | |
Sam Parr | you've never heard that from anyone else I mean you live in idaho you you you have | |
Sam Parr | Kids at 21, like, you work hard, you're honest. It seems like you don't party. You got hardcore Mormon energy when you drink Mountain Dew.
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Shaan Puri | the time | |
Sam Parr | yeah you got hardcore mormon caffeine | |
Nathan Barry | No, Sean, what I was going to say is that what's funny is, Tim McGraw and Arnold Schwarzenegger both have convergent newsletters. They pay full price and they don't ever give me any trouble about it.
But then it's like the internet influencers who say, "I should get this for free," you know? And I'm like, "No."
So it's fascinating because we've had that a lot over the years, right? People saying, "Hey, what discount can you give me? Do you know how famous I am?"
What's fun is separating them from "internet famous" and "actual famous." The more you've gotten into the actual famous space, the easier it has been to say, "Yeah, no man, here's the value that we provide."
I think I was giving you a hard time because you had just done a thread like two weeks earlier about your paid newsletter that was making like $50 or $100 a month. I can't remember if I linked you to the same thread, but that's what I wanted to do in the Twitter DMs. So...
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Sam Parr | big is how how big is arnold's list | |
Nathan Barry | we can't say those numbers but he's still relatively small | |
Shaan Puri | who's whose list is bigger his his list or my list my list is not very big but | |
Nathan Barry | his is big | |
Shaan Puri | I I think it could be the same size as arnold | |
Sam Parr | no way | |
Sam Parr | that bitch no shit | |
Nathan Barry | you don't have favorite little like business model synergy | |
Sam Parr | that weak link | |
Nathan Barry | So, he was on... it's fun! As he goes around promoting his newsletter, right? Because he goes on like Jimmy Kimmel and is talking about his email newsletter, which is always fun.
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Shaan Puri | but I go on indie hackers dude | |
Nathan Barry | But when it comes to a business model, what's funny is when one ConvertKit customer links to another to grow their list.
For example, when Tim Ferriss links to Arnold's list and says, "Hey, you know, go sign up for Arnold's list," it adds, you're like, checking 40,000 subscribers.
And it's just like our cut just goes up, you know? It's just one customer referring to the other. But anyway, it's a funny situation.
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Sam Parr | you gotta write a blog post like the best way to grow your list partnerships here's like | |
Sam Parr | a list of like interesting people to partner with | |
Nathan Barry | simmons I have a vp of growth opening do you wanna | |
Sam Parr | come come join me | |
Shaan Puri | morning brew actually as we discussed last episode | |
Sam Parr | yeah last episode morning brew offered me a job too | |
Shaan Puri | There you go. It's actually like a great power move to just offer staff writer jobs or staff jobs to CEOs of other companies. It's a way to flex on them, to be like, "Hey, you know, I heard things are tough. Just so you know, there's always a home for you here." That's right.
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Sam Parr | so listen listen to this | |
Shaan Puri | the ceo of mailchimp | |
Sam Parr | Like, a month into starting the hustle, we wrote a blog post or whatever. I was trying to hire writers and I saw this awesome article. I don't remember where it was, but the author was Nellie Bowles. I think her name is spelled B-O-W-L-E-S. Now she's like a really famous New York Times person.
I think even when I found her, she was actually at the New York Times but had just done a one-off piece for this small magazine. I emailed her and said, "You are so good! Would you love to interview for a position at my company? We're looking for bloggers." She was like, "That's cute, but no thanks."
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Sam Parr | And I will never forget that she told me, "That's cute." I have held this grudge against her for years because she said, "It's cute," for years.
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Nathan Barry | you can just imagine like the little pat on the head and the hair tassel that went with like | |
Shaan Puri | that's cute you know like | |
Sam Parr | it's kept me up at night like so many I | |
Sam Parr | was like I've got how am | |
Sam Parr | I gonna get revenge and I don't have a good way but that was like 8 years ago | |
Shaan Puri | Like Arya Stark, before bed every night, he says a list of the names of the people he needs to get revenge on. It's like Nellie Bowles.
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Sam Parr | I definitely... I've, you know, like what they like. I got a bunch of champagne bottles with people's names on them. Whenever I get back at them, I crack that champagne bottle open and drink it. Like, yeah, I want some people's heads on my desk, that's for sure.
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Shaan Puri | we have a buddy | |
Sam Parr | get on | |
Nathan Barry | that list | |
Shaan Puri | not much turns out not much | |
Sam Parr | yeah just don't call me cute | |
Shaan Puri | Just be like, you know, comment on one of his Instagram videos and just say, "Awesome for a beginner." Just like that, move on. Yeah, you've... | |
Sam Parr | or like you're still at | |
Sam Parr | it awesome | |
Shaan Puri | We have a buddy who is like the nicest guy in the world. You know, he would give you the shirt off his back. He's nice to everybody, kind to strangers, kind to animals, kind to everyone.
You go into his house, and on his fridge, he's got this clip art picture of a brand name from another company's logo with a target—kind of like a red target, like a sniper. He's got three of them on his fridge.
I remember going over and asking, "What's this about?" He said, "Oh yeah, those are my competitors. I just want to think about, you know, just sort of like killing them basically every day when I come to the kitchen."
I was like, "Whoa, there's a dark side to Mr. Nice Guy here."
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Sam Parr | do you have one of those nathan | |
Shaan Puri | I I would bet anything nathan does not have anything like what we're talking about he's got | |
Sam Parr | You are so wrong. I bet you that he... I don't know if he'll admit it, but I bet you he hates Mailchimp.
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Nathan Barry | Oh, see, I have weird feelings about Mailchimp because I have so much respect for them and like...
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Sam Parr | Dude, you have to respect them. Like, the guy who killed John Lennon has respect for him. It's called a "love knife." You love him so much, you want to kill him. That's like what it is.
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Sam Parr | it's like the guy who like killed the pope that's what you're gonna do | |
Nathan Barry | So, you have to separate the businesses from the people. I think that's true.
One time, I was at a conference and Ben Chestnut was speaking. I emailed him and was like, "Hey man, will you..." I don't even know why he said yes, but it's just like, I'm a big fan of what you've done.
In all fairness, we're a competitor trying to take as much business from you as we can, but would you be up for sitting down and talking? He said, "Yeah, I have a flight at this time, so I'm checking out of the hotel. Meet me in the hotel lobby, you know, and we'll chat."
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Shaan Puri | for 30 minutes gave me the wrong hotel love it great power move ben chestnut | |
Nathan Barry | set me on this wild goose chase | |
Sam Parr | yeah it's like | |
Shaan Puri | you missed your flight my hotel you never had a flight | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, but no. He sat down with me and told me all about how they launched their free plan and all this stuff. Then, they were Inc. Magazine's Company of the Year. This is the Inc. Magazine, like, Inc. 5000 event.
So, the Editor-in-Chief from Inc. Magazine comes up while we're talking. He's like, "Hey Ben, great talk, all of that." And Ben goes, "Hey, do you know Nathan? He's trying to kill my company."
And like, as he introduced me to the Editor-in-Chief of Inc. Magazine. Anyway, so I have tons of what...
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Sam Parr | would it look like if you just like assaulted him right there | |
Shaan Puri | Sam's gone off, but he has a jail reservation now. He's still thinking about, like, killing Nelly Bowles with the love knife or whatever.
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Sam Parr | for the record nelly I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do anything | |
Shaan Puri | Is this Sam? Is this the same person that you had the famous interview with at The New York Times or The New Yorker, or whatever it was? And like, the interview did not go well.
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Sam Parr | it did not go well | |
Sam Parr | I forget this no | |
Sam Parr | That was Erin Griffin. She came to interview me, and I don't even know why, but she was fishing for stuff. She's like, "So, like..."
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Sam Parr | What do you do on the weekends? Like, listen to Joe Rogan? That's what she said to me. I'm like, "What?" I'm like, "No, like he doesn't even..." | |
Sam Parr | that's monday to friday | |
Sam Parr | he doesn't even have a podcast | |
Sam Parr | I said what are you talking about | |
Sam Parr | yeah and and she was | |
Sam Parr | Like, well, because you're a tech bro, and I'm like, first of all, most of The New York Times' revenue is digital. You're a tech company, so you tell me, what do your tech friends do? And so anyway, yeah, that thing.
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Shaan Puri | go on storm out or or how did that end something something like | |
Sam Parr | I was just like I don't know what to say I'm out of here yeah I I it it didn't it didn't end well | |
Shaan Puri | that's so good | |
Nathan Barry | Those interviews... I've only ever had one of those. I don't remember who it was with, but where you're like, "Okay, I think we're done." You could just tell that they're looking for some angle. All the questions are weird and you're...
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Shaan Puri | just like | |
Sam Parr | why would anyone hate you because you're kinda perfect | |
Nathan Barry | it's good that you bring that up | |
Sam Parr | so like woah | |
Shaan Puri | no I'm just kidding | |
Sam Parr | nick it's like well it's a lot more damage | |
Shaan Puri | true so I'm not sure what the problem is | |
Sam Parr | yeah it's like I like this | |
Shaan Puri | I've got | |
Sam Parr | there's a lot of bad | |
Shaan Puri | things I | |
Sam Parr | like this in the shower | |
Shaan Puri | this clip of biden the other day when he called the the journalist was like on the way out did you see this clip | |
Sam Parr | a stupid son | |
Shaan Puri | Of a bitch, the guy's like, "You know what? Because in... what do you think about inflation and Biden?" Just like in that moment, he was just like lost it. He was just like, "Yeah, great, stupid son of a bitch."
Okay, that's how I imagine Nathan breaking character in one of these interviews.
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Nathan Barry | So, okay, Sam, I have a question on this then. Do you think that being so nice in all of this, and like everyone likes me, holds back my growth as an entrepreneur and, you know, a wannabe internet celebrity?
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Sam Parr | No, because, like, you're happy and it's working. So I think that's the goal.
And, you actually have dropped it a couple of times. You don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but basically, you didn't like what Sahil at Gumroad did, and you called him out. It was pretty vicious, and I knew that.
Do you know this, Sean?
No?
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Shaan Puri | what did he call him | |
Sam Parr | Out for dude, he just like publicly kind of **bitch slapped** Sahil and like... | |
Shaan Puri | for what | |
Sam Parr | it was crazy what was | |
Shaan Puri | the? | |
Nathan Barry | So, I was around when Sam was talking about government from the very beginning. I think I was the first independent seller to cross $10,000 in sales on Gumroad. So, like, from the very very beginning, I became friends with tons of people there and spent a lot of time at their office.
I had a huge friend in Sahil, but at one point, he got burnt out on the company. They had an offer to buy the company, but he didn't take it. Instead, he laid everyone off, and it wound down and ultimately failed.
The thing is, with a platform like that, they don't just fail and disappear. They fail and coast; the software still works and all that. Then he came back and told this totally different story about how VC is evil and how he's running the company in this new way—like, "Here's how I run it in 5 hours a week with 2 contractors." That was frustrating, but I didn't say anything.
Then, when they went and raised new money, they didn't give any to the original team members. They got all the VCs to write off their equity and convinced all the team members to be like, "Hey, it's a failed company; give up your equity." They went and raised a bunch of new money without taking care of the original team members. That really pissed me off because I know exactly who built the software. I sat next to them while we were talking about it at their office in San Francisco. I know they don't have any equity, and I know that you didn't take care of them. Now you're telling this new story and everything.
So, yeah, I guess, Sam, I do make some enemies on the internet.
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Sam Parr | you do | |
Sam Parr | And when you said that, I was like, "Well, I don't know. Sahil seems like a nice guy from my limited interactions with him." But I was like, "Well, if Nathan's saying that, it's probably true."
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Shaan Puri | Yeah, and you know, you could separate the person from the decision. I've made a bunch of bad decisions, but I don't think I'm a bad guy. Oh...
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Nathan Barry | me too I've made a lot and yeah | |
Shaan Puri | And so, you know, I would separate the two. Because he, you know, he's probably a nice guy. I don't know him super well either, but you're right.
The way he kind of got Twitter famous, in a way, was to come out and tell this story. It was like a fail story that worked. We were the hot thing, we raised money, we had all these expectations, and people bet on us. It didn't work, and now we're in this new mode.
I've seen the light. It was sort of like, you know, I got baptized, and now I believe that this business should be done this other way. Okay, fair enough. Some people really liked that; they thought it was very transparent and all that good stuff.
But it was weird that, you know, a year or two later, it's like, "I'm raising new money at a $100 million valuation." It's like, wait, you're back on that train? Weren't you kind of saying all the things that were wrong with that model?
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Sam Parr | like freedom | |
Shaan Puri | Championing... yeah, championing the freedom that you were getting, and the "choose your own destiny" mindset, getting off the rat race.
Maybe I read it wrong; maybe I was just skimming and missed it. But that did seem strange to me.
Then, like you're saying, Nathan, it's kind of weird to do that whole thing in public when a whole bunch of people bet on you, lost money on you, and are not participating in the future. That would leave a bad taste in people's mouths, I think.
So, you know, I think those are fair points. I'm sure he has his side of the story about why it's not bad and why it's not that...
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Nathan Barry | and all those things | |
Shaan Puri | So, you know, fair enough. But he's not here, so I'm just gonna say my side, and it seems like that'll be the final word. | |
Nathan Barry | I mean, tons of credit to Sahil afterwards because he owned up to parts of it. We had a good conversation about it.
He actually, when he launched his book, included ConvertKit in the story, which I was really surprised by. So, as far as people who don't hold a grudge, I think Sahil is one.
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Shaan Puri | of them not sam he's not sam I think he's I I don't I hold grudges too and in fact I actually manufacture grudges so like there's this one guy I always call my rival and I'm sure from his. Of perspective he's either like who is this or he's like wait why are we rivals we we got a lot we got a lot of just fine and in my head this is like somebody I met in when I was in college and the guy's got like a super ultra will rich dad like billionaire dad and I always used to joke like if I ever played basketball there usually wasn't like another indian guy like playing basketball so if there ever was like the running joke in my group of friends in college was well sean we know who you're guarding like you have to guard him and you would need to win your matchup here like your honor is on the line basically like we need to know who's the better indian basketball player on the court right now it was just like this running joke and so that got extended once we I started a business with my college friends they were like well seems like this guy is like you know your rival and I and I played into it and we kinda made it a thing where the guy would be like you know hanging out with richard branson on his island and we were like just try to create a chip on our shoulder underdog story it was like you know I'd be sleeping on my air mattress that I was planning to return to target to like save money because our business wasn't doing any good and if you saw this other guy like you know sipping pina coladas with richard branson it just felt like oh those are the haves and we're the have nots and so I was like manufacturing these little feuds or like I remember we did a a we when we bought bebo back we were gonna relaunch it and I gave the scoop to this girl who was like really nice journalist to me she was somebody I'd met she seemed really nice and I was like hey do you want the the story like I'll give you the story about like what we're gonna do and how it all played out she's like yeah great so we she comes over I do the interview it's like literally you know we're playing patty cake it's all good article comes out the next day and the headline is like just some vicious it's like remember bebo yeah that you know that flop is back again I don't even know it was just like it was like | |
Sam Parr | oh my god | |
Sam Parr | it was like disgusting | |
Shaan Puri | shot where | |
Sam Parr | he lunges this | |
Shaan Puri | He told me the plan with his bad breath, and I was like, "What?" You know, like in my head, that's what it said. It was like... as.
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Sam Parr | yeah if you like spinach go eat some of the stuff that came out of sean's teeth it's still | |
Shaan Puri | Probably there. So, I felt so backstabbed. You know, not a love knife, just a straight knife. I remember just being like... I never had the interview where I walked away. I had the opposite, where I felt completely... I texted her, I was like, "Yo, what the fuck?"
Because actually, the article was fine; just the headline was completely brutal. It was just making fun of us and saying, "Get a load of this fucking schmuck." And she's like, "Sorry, the editor writes the headlines and he just thought that that's what would get more clicks. I don't have any say in that."
And I was like, "Oh, so fuck you and your profession." It was like... you know where I landed on that. I think that was my only feud, actually. The other one, where I called... what's her name? The Jake Paul of journalism was probably the other one: Taylor.
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Sam Parr | Lorenz, yeah, like I think that I actually think it's great fuel. I mean, like I joke to my wife, I'm like, "I'm fueled on carbonated water and grudges." Like, I think...
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Sam Parr | grudges I think are like the greatest fuel ever like isn't that like | |
Sam Parr | the whole thing about being like a chip on your shoulder | |
Sam Parr | like protein | |
Shaan Puri | what it is that you | |
Sam Parr | would have like | |
Shaan Puri | grudges is like my macro my macro diet | |
Sam Parr | Yeah, I'm just like, "I gotta make sure I get my rage in that day." Otherwise, I just don't feel like myself. It's like Ari Gold; I just love firing people. So anyway, I think it's good. I think rage is great.
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Nathan Barry | that's the key takeaway from this episode people listen to me | |
Shaan Puri | sam you do need like a lloyd | |
Nathan Barry | let me go manufacture some rages | |
Shaan Puri | somebody yell out some rages every day | |
Sam Parr | I do like it. Well, Sean, when we first met Ben Levy, or I met him the first time, you were like, "Well, you know, Sam's a little challenging." I just...
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Shaan Puri | Had to give him a heads up. I'm like, "Don't take it personal if he kind of fires off."
Yeah, Ari Gold is actually a great, great analogy because there's no... what's it called? Like, there's no hate behind the words. Right? Like, I'm yelling, but I love you. It has nothing to do with how much I like you or how good I think you are. I'm just yelling because I'm yelling.
So, I tried to give him the heads up, but you were so zen. This was post-exit. Sam is a completely different guy. He's, you know, you're not Ari Gold anymore.
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Sam Parr | He'll come back in due time. Dude, Nathan, thanks for coming on. I'm happy you're able to make it. I bailed on you last week, sorry, and I'm happy that we made it work this time. | |
Nathan Barry | yeah thanks for having me it's always fun | |
Sam Parr | what yep you wanna where people follow me like what yeah | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, okay. So if people want to follow me online, I'm currently trying to grow my Twitter audience. You should go follow me there. I'm trying to see if I can go from 50,000 to 100,000 followers at Nathan Berry. Berry is spelled B-E-R-R-Y. Usually, when you try to grow...
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Shaan Puri | your audience you should tell them the name of the of the thing | |
Nathan Barry | You know, I only want the most dedicated fans who really... No, I'm just kidding. Thanks for the advice, Sean. I don't know.
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Shaan Puri | to your ladder shove that in your ladder | |
Sam Parr | You know what we didn't discuss? And I don't... we don't have time now. But one time, Sean Nathan renamed the company ConvertKit to something else. He didn't realize it, but it meant something disrespectful to Hindus (Hindis with the plural).
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Shaan Puri | yeah you've heard the first half | |
Sam Parr | And it was disrespectful to them. He made this huge name change, and they changed the company back to ConvertKit after like 24 hours.
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Shaan Puri | Wait, what was it? What was that? HIPAA? Okay, I speak English, but what? No.
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Nathan Barry | it means service but in c culture it means | |
Shaan Puri | oh like | |
Nathan Barry | Selfless service is like the highest form of worship. It's a whole thing, yeah.
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Shaan Puri | it's like I'm doing it I'm doing a service for you I don't I don't find that offensive that's not offensive | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, there were a lot of people who did find it offensive. So, you know, if we talk about mistakes... turns.
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Shaan Puri | out I'm not as easily offended | |
Nathan Barry | it's owning of things | |
Shaan Puri | I got in trouble | |
Nathan Barry | So, Hindus didn't find it offensive. In fact, I had a lot of people who thought it was awesome or something like that. However, everyone from the Sikh culture was like...
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Sam Parr | sorry yeah | |
Nathan Barry | It had a much different meaning there. So anyway, that was a $500,000 mistake, but I owned up to it. So that's it.
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Shaan Puri | a whole thing for another in | |
Sam Parr | a way | |
Sam Parr | That the ConvertKit is a good name. The other thing, like "7" or whatever you said, is not a good name.
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Sam Parr | like so I think | |
Shaan Puri | Hindu... Hindu worship? No, that doesn't seem like the right name for an email. Yeah, ConvertKit is a great name.
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Sam Parr | that's such a good name | |
Nathan Barry | well maybe it was a $500,000 mistake that will turn out to be a multimillion dollar win | |
Shaan Puri | Do you still have the domain? Because we should just launch like a prayer service or, you know, like a philanthropy thing for India under that name.
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Nathan Barry | I I | |
Shaan Puri | have some indian startups that might want that name | |
Nathan Barry | I do have the domain. There are actually two startups: one that went through Y Combinator and one other that have asked for it. I paid $340,000 for the domain, so I'm kind of hanging on to it. | |
Shaan Puri | is it a 4 letter domain | |
Nathan Barry | 4 letters | |
Shaan Puri | how I | |
Sam Parr | don't even know how to spell that word | |
Shaan Puri | how do | |
Sam Parr | you spell that word | |
Shaan Puri | It sounds like a bottled water, dude. I got it. It's not like a...
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Sam Parr | something that you're gonna like send emails from so I think smart move | |
Shaan Puri | My morning started off with some trouble because I wrote "sorry" in the Milk Road edition that went out today. One of the things we covered was the Federal Reserve's meeting about interest rates and how that's affecting the markets.
I included a picture of the committee that meets, the Federal Open Market Committee, and it's basically a bunch of old white people. I had a few different openers that I scrapped. One was, "Here's a picture from a nursing home I visited recently... oh wait, no, that's not right, that's the Fed Open Market Committee."
I ended up scrapping that and said something else. Then I wrote, "At today's elderly white people committee," but I struck that through and finally settled on, "At the Fed Open Market Committee."
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Sam Parr | like a rural mcdonald's at like 7 am | |
Shaan Puri | People got mad at me. It's like a seized candy. Yeah, people were like, "You know, the skin color has nothing to do with it." And I was like, "Yeah, of course it's a joke, and it has everything to do with my joke." The picture's funny.
I thought we could make fun of the Fed with no repercussions. There are certain things that are really safe to punch at, and the Fed seems like one of the safest. You know, the Fed, the Senate... Who's defending their honor? I don't understand. Is your mom on this? Is your grandma on this panel?
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Sam Parr | some people got mad at me | |
Shaan Puri | I was like you you should go ahead and unsubscribe because my filter is a lot looser than that yeah | |
Sam Parr | so dude nathan thank you this is awesome | |
Nathan Barry | Yeah, thanks for having me! We'll have to do it again sometime. We'll have to hang out in Austin when you get this new property. We'll come and do a workout on the ranch.
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Sam Parr | come on let's go | |
Nathan Barry | sounds good | |
Shaan Puri | chad let's accept the grudge this year alright alright here we go yes |