Dopamine Fasts, Cruise Ship Investing, and Elon vs Bezos with Andrew Wilkinson, Co-Founder of Tiny

Shaan Puri

Because I was like, "Pipe that content into my ears, baby," while I'm falling asleep. I don't want to fall asleep; I want to be entertained and then pass out. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to be.

Sam Parr

andrew what's going on

Andrew Wilkinson

yeah what's up doing long time no see

Sam Parr

yeah man you went off the you went off the deep end

Andrew Wilkinson

with the spirit I became a monk pulled a matthew mcconaughey did you

Shaan Puri

how was it do that

Andrew Wilkinson

It was awesome! Yeah, apparently Matthew McConaughey, when he wanted to write his book, drove four hours into the desert. He literally lived in a shack for two months and wrote his book.

Shaan Puri

did you read it I read that book or I read part of it

Andrew Wilkinson

is it good

Shaan Puri

If you read it and you use Matthew McConaughey's voice while you're reading it, it's actually pretty entertaining. The stories are good, but also, they're just stories about his life. I'm not sure I care that much about Matthew McConaughey's life.

Sam Parr

why wouldn't you just listen to listen to the audible book then if you wanted his voice

Andrew Wilkinson

to read it did love that you created a film

Shaan Puri

you're not smart enough to know

Andrew Wilkinson

that it already exists

Shaan Puri

that that would have been way better

Sam Parr

yeah you should have said the audible book then

Shaan Puri

yeah just honestly did think about it sounds like a good idea I should probably do that

Sam Parr

So, you, Andrew, basically... we'll do the intro now. Andrew is a great friend of ours and has this big business called Tiny, where they own a bunch of different businesses, generating over $100 million in revenue. He took a company public. You're successful in terms of career and in the traditional sense of success. You're a good friend and you normally come on a lot. But you just tweeted how you kind of took off for all of August. You kind of bailed because you were having a meltdown, which we all have had before—like a digital overload meltdown. And you just bailed, right?

Andrew Wilkinson

totally it was it was really it was bad I mean it's interesting to think about like I think this happened to everyone over covid like their life just shifted in a weird way and my life just became crappy over covid which is weird because I had this amazing year like we took a business public we raised a big fund we got to work with all these interesting people we bought some great businesses I didn't die of covid like all these great things happened and yet I was totally miserable and when I look at it when I kinda zoom out my old day I don't know if you guys you guys know but I live in victoria canada and I didn't even have an office so I actually like just working out of cafes I would just go to the same cafe every day and I'd sit there with headphones on 3 or 4 of my friends would always work there so it was kinda like cheers there's always like interesting people to talk to and my day was just broken up into a bunch of chunks so any given day I wouldn't really be on the computer or in one place for more than an hour or 2 and my day went from that to sitting in a house on my computer all day on zoom and doing email and it just kinda made me miserable and so I I you know when I look at like what I love about business I don't actually love you know doing business is great doing strategy coming up with ideas all that kind of stuff but the cool thing about business is you get to meet interesting people like business is just a hack right so like if you're interested in health you figure out like a health business you suddenly can meet all the most interesting people in that world and I'm an extrovert so so anyway just I was totally bummed and I started you know going on twitter a lot because I was craving socializing and I I went from like 20,000 followers to a 170,000 followers so I got totally hooked into that and like a good day would be like I have a viral tweet or I go on your podcast or something something exciting happens a bad day would be I say something on twitter I get dunked on I got misunderstood or it doesn't do well like what a ridiculous thing like I'd tweet and it would only get like 50 likes instead of 5,000 likes and it would like throw my day off so I got to a.

Andrew Wilkinson

Where I was just like, "Jesus Christ, this is totally ridiculous." I'm thinking about Twitter constantly. I'm checking Twitter constantly. On top of that, I'm checking emails and stats, stocks... If I went to the bathroom without my phone, I feel like I would freak out. I'm constantly listening to audiobooks and podcasts—no silence. So, I just hit this weird breaking point on August 1st. I woke up and I was like, "I'm not stoked to get out of bed." I'm not depressed; objectively, everything is fine. I'm just like, I have **anhedonia**—I'm just not excited about anything. So, I just said, "Fuck it, I'm just gonna..."

Sam Parr

what what what's that word you just said that was a good one

Andrew Wilkinson

I was never adonia it means like an inability to feel pleasure right like nothing nothing would get me pumped nothing would give me a hit like you know you know when you like you're always you go on netflix you're like scrolling endlessly for the perfect thing you just can't find it that's how my life felt and so I basically you know it's the middle of august I live in british columbia it's super beautiful and so I just said to my wife you know what I'm out for the next month let's just go off to our cabin we'll you know we'll go on some trips and I'm just gonna totally check out and I set a couple of rules for myself I was like no phone no email no computer no podcasts no phone calls no social media no news I couldn't even read nonfiction business books right so it's pretty extreme and I put on my apple watch which has you know cellular so I was like okay if there's an emergency I can get a phone call and I put my phone in a drawer and I just disappeared I went up to my cabin and hung out with my kids and honestly for the first like 3 or 4 days it felt like there was like a bug in my brain like I was just like so like like something I I itch I couldn't scratch like just so irritable as being a huge asshole I was like slapping my pocket every 5 seconds to check stuff I'd be sitting on the beach with my kids and I'd constantly be like oh I need to text this to a friend I gotta I gotta take a photo of this right so it's really weird horrible withdrawal but then after like 3 or 4 days I was like holy crap like this is really interesting I started reading fiction books and just sitting for hours you know enjoying a sunset taking a silent drive doing all this stuff and I think it's kind of like if you eat junk food all the time like you're drinking coke and having burgers and stuff all the time and then you eat broccoli it doesn't taste that good your brain is primed for like these extreme flavors and then if you switch to broccoli you know you don't eat those things for a month then you eat broccoli broccoli is like orgasmic it's amazing and so anyway I did this for 4 weeks and I was feeling really good and I came back to life like I kind of reintroduced myself into society and started going out and working and stuff and it was really bizarre like I you know would listen to a song that was playing in a cafe and it'd be like the greatest song I've ever heard I'd read some random article and it would be like fascinating and I'd just be completely like just you know engaged with it and then problems I had to solve that would have pissed me off like seemed like no problem and I was excited to solve them and I was kinda going like man why why did that work like what was it about that and at the same time like around then I started listening to podcasts again and I listened to this podcast by andrew huberman huberman lab which I'm sure you guys have listened to

Sam Parr

he's amazing he's he's coming on the podcast

Andrew Wilkinson

Oh, amazing! That's awesome. So, he did this deep dive on addiction with this woman, Anna Lemke, who's a Stanford addiction doctor. I was like, "Oh, this will be interesting. It'll be about like heroin addiction or something, and how they treat alcoholism." So, I started listening to it.

Shaan Puri

those other people who have those other bad problems

Andrew Wilkinson

yeah I'm not one

Shaan Puri

of them it's fun it's fun to read about them

Andrew Wilkinson

Totally! I was like, "Oh, this could be, you know, maybe philanthropic. I can help fund the heroin addiction center in Victoria or something." So anyway, as I listened, I just thought, "Oh my God, this is universal." Basically, the chemical dopamine, the neurotransmitter, is the thing that makes you feel craving and pleasure when you do things. It motivates you to do things. I realized, you know, she said something along the lines of: > "If you eat chocolate cake once a month, it tastes amazing and you don't really crave it that much. You don't really think about it that much. It's very pleasurable. If you eat it once a week, it's still enjoyable, but it's not as good. You start having cravings; you start wanting chocolate cake. If you eat it every day, your brain literally craves it, and you're in pain until you eat it. When you eat it, it's not even that enjoyable; it just makes the pain go away for a little bit." She compares that to heroin addiction or anything. So, you know, here we all are, stimulating ourselves with social media 24/7. We're constantly taking these hits, and the hits become less and less enjoyable. She talked about how she's at Stanford, treating students. She mentioned these kids that would come in, addicted to social media and video games, and they have no motivation. So she said, "Look, I basically recommend a dopamine fast for four weeks. They can't do any of that stuff. They've got to walk in silence, drive in silence, and have quiet moments." I realized that I had basically done that for myself, and that's why I felt better. I was an addict. It's crazy.

Sam Parr

How do you propose doing this, though? Given, like, I hear everything you're saying and I think, "Oh, I actually, I'm sure I have the exact same problem." But I'm like, "I better record this podcast. I've got to text." I mean, I guess I don't have to, but you know, it's... yeah.

Shaan Puri

It's easy for you to say, "rich guy," right? For somebody who's listening, or even most people, I would say the practicality of detaching for four weeks is hard.

Andrew Wilkinson

Oh yeah, and I think my version of it was extreme, but there are many different forms of it. I mean, it could be as simple as just wearing your Apple Watch and not texting. The only way you text is crappily on your Apple Watch. You take calls on your Apple Watch, and you do Zoom calls on your laptop, but you just don't have that constant 24/7 iMessage coming in. Or maybe you just screen time your phone super aggressively. I mean, how do you not eat junk food all the time and have a good diet? Don't keep junk food in the house. Don't keep booze in the house, right? Self-bind yourself. So, I mean, I just basically screen time the hell out of my phone. Like today, for example, I drove to my office. I just had my Apple Watch; I didn't have my phone. I know if my kids fall down and hurt themselves, my wife can call me, but otherwise, I'm not really texting.

Sam Parr

Do you do that, Sean? Because I think of you, Sean, as someone who is connected a lot.

Shaan Puri

I am connected a lot I've consciously picked 2 parts of my day where I'm like these are my like disconnect days you know like these are my disconnect hours at least because you know I I think about it very much the same as andrea I heard 2 things that that kinda shifted my view on this so the first was naval had this great thing he used to say where he goes the ancient struggle was scarcity you know the the ancient struggle was we just didn't have enough we didn't have enough food we didn't have enough water we didn't have enough you know access to medicine ex entertainment whatever and the modern struggle is abundance which is we're overloaded with cheap dopamine and like and then that the idea of cheap dopamine is something that I literally last night I was listening to huberman's little clip that came up on my youtube feed of ed huberman and it's funny by the way because it's like I literally I I have it's like the addict is like learning about rehab while like shooting up basically because it was 3 am I had just I was going to bed I had stayed up way too late already and I'm the type where you know if I get like you said I'm going to the bathroom and I don't have my phone with me I'm like oh I'm gonna miss out on like my entertainment like I right now I could watch something listen to something do something while I'm just peeing or whatever like brushing my teeth and I literally bought this headphone that I can wear to sleep because it's comfortable so it's like a headband it's like a soft headband that has small earbuds baked into it so you could sleep with headphones because I was like pipe that content into my ears baby while I'm falling asleep like I don't want I don't wanna fall asleep I wanna be entertained and pass out like that's kind of the way I was sleeping and so even last night I was doing that my my bad habit and it was just like you know ultra connected too connected and I started listening to this huberman thing and he goes he said something that really struck me he goes he goes one way to think about addiction is it's a progressive narrowing of what gives you pleasure so it's a it's a you are narrowing the things in your life that that will give you this rush of pleasure so so andrew when you when you when you dopamine fasted you started getting pleasure from silence in the car from the sunset from fiction books but before that it's like twitter was this cheap fast instantaneous guaranteed source of pleasure and so it was it narrowed the number of places you were going to get that pleasure to like this most convenient time also

Andrew Wilkinson

It also became more painful, though. When I first started using Twitter, it was pure pleasure and so fun. Over time, it took more and more of a hit to satisfy me.

Shaan Puri

The numbing... and then, yeah, you get numb to it. It's sort of like you build a tolerance, right? Like you would with alcohol or anything else.

Sam Parr

And of course, you had to turn your experience into a thread, which probably became one of your most reached things.

Andrew Wilkinson

of course

Shaan Puri

it does

Andrew Wilkinson

Totally, totally. Well, this is the debate, right? Do you want to engage? Like, okay, obviously it's a good thing that we can all use iMessage and these devices. They're like a bicycle for the mind. There are always amazing things you can do; you can meet all these amazing people. But the question is, how do you use them in a responsible way? So, like with Twitter, I have a one-way Twitter client that I'm using, so I don't actually see the results of my tweets. Although, in this case, I'll admit I did go and look. But my goal is to actually limit screen time on every device, so I can access Twitter only through the API.

Sam Parr

I think there's a good way to look at it. Have you guys heard of this person named Earl Nightingale? So basically, he probably died in the sixties or maybe the seventies. He was famous in the fifties and sixties. He was almost like a Tony Robbins of that era, but he was a little bit more well-known as a writer. He was like a Dan Rather meets Tony Robbins, a mainstream famous guy. He told this famous story on his radio broadcast where he talked to a farmer. He went to this farmer's house right when the telephone became popular. He was having a conversation with the farmer when the phone started ringing. The farmer didn't flinch; he just kept making eye contact and having the conversation. About five minutes later, the phone rang again, and he did the same thing. He kept making eye contact. Then, a few minutes later, it rang one more time. The guest, Earl, goes, "Hey, do you need to answer that?" The farmer replies, "The what? That thing? No, no, no, that's just there for my convenience. I answer that whenever I want." When I heard that story a couple of years ago, I thought, "That's how I'm going to treat my phone." It is there for me, and I don't feel guilty about clicking ignore, deny, or not replying. This phone exists for my convenience, not the other way around. I own it.

Andrew Wilkinson

Well, the other thing is, you know, do you ever think about the 1950s? In the 1950s, if you were an executive at a business, you would have a secretary. The secretary would be keeping everyone away from you, and then you'd get your mail once or twice a day. You'd batch it, right? So you'd get a hundred letters, half of them done by your secretary. You'd get 20 or 50 of them, or whatever, and you would just do that over an hour. You'd write all your letter responses, and then you're done for the day. Whereas now, we have a mailman who's coming to the door every five minutes, knock knock knock, throwing a bunch more letters in there, and you're kind of doing it in the middle of everything. So I think batching is incredibly helpful. The other thing is, you know, people who talk about being friends with or family with an alcoholic mention how the alcohol will actually, if someone gets in between them and the alcohol, they will always choose the alcohol. I think the hard part is, think about all the arguments I've had with my wife. If I don't get to follow my routine, my dopamine routine—like, I like to listen to podcasts in the shower, and then I like to do X, Y, and Z, and I've got my whole routine and process—if she messes with it, like, "Hey, I need you to go and do this," or whatever, I would rage, right? I just thought I was an asshole or OCD or something. Now, being off of that, I'm not raging and getting frustrated in that same way. So it's really fascinating how all the addiction stuff just flows through this.

Shaan Puri

I've created basically two windows in the day. So, exercise is one. Exercise is beautiful because I have a very low urge to check my phone when I'm working out. This allows for almost 90 minutes of not looking at my phone. I don't care what's happening, how much sales we have, or who's mentioning me. I don't care who's emailing me or slacking me. Sam, I think you probably have the same experience. When you work out, I don't think you are checking your phone either.

Sam Parr

I don't... it means nothing to me. I do look at it to mark down what I'm doing, but typically what I've been doing lately is I'll mark down on a notepad with my workout. Then, I transfer it after the workout specifically so I don't touch my phone. Do you?

Andrew Wilkinson

Guys, listen to music while you work out. One of the things Huberman talks about is that you don't want a dopamine stack. People work out to experience pleasure and dopamine, but if you start stacking it—like saying, "When I work out, I watch Game of Thrones and I get a smoothie after"—you may begin to not enjoy the actual workout. Whereas, if you do it for intrinsic reasons, you can actually train yourself to enjoy it.

Shaan Puri

we I do listen

Sam Parr

To music, because I listen to music too. I love it! I feel like that's music listening time.

Shaan Puri

you know what I mean where basically here I am training myself to love with your addiction

Sam Parr

you went on

Shaan Puri

Sorry, go ahead. That's funny. Andrew, Sam, I'm getting between you and your addiction. Sam raged out immediately. Yeah, you know, I'm doing the opposite. Dan Ariely, the kind of famous behavioral economist, was talking about this thing where he had this medicine he had to take because he has really bad burns—he had really bad facial burns. He had to take this one medicine all the time or apply this ointment. It burned; it was really uncomfortable. So he was like, instead of trying to wrestle with the brain and convince it through logic that this is a good thing for me, when the brain is just saying, "Ew, I don't like the way this medicine makes me feel. Don't take this," he attached a really enjoyable thing to taking the medicine. Every time he took the medicine, he would do it during the intro of his favorite movie and watch his favorite movie or show. He said that helped him stick to his routine of taking the medicine and actually get healthier. For me, that's almost like working out. Working out wasn't something I found super pleasurable; that's why I didn't work out for so long. It kind of felt like work. So I had to retrain myself using music, having a great trainer who I like hanging out with, and doing different types of workouts that are more sporty. I stacked things I knew I loved onto working out so that I started to love working out because I only got to do those things when I worked out.

Sam Parr

Yeah, and I’d also say though, Andrew, while you’re taking this stance, I don’t know if you actually feel that way. Is addiction necessarily bad? Alright, so I’ve talked about this a lot. I’ve had alcohol problems, and then I started going to cigars. One way that I got off it is I started smoking. After smoking, I began doing sugar or something like that. I went to the doctor, and I said, “You know, I’m eating so much sugar.” She asked, “Well, is it helping you not drink?” I replied, “Yeah.” She said, “Fuck it, just do it.” I thought, “Yeah, why wouldn’t I just do that?” So, some addiction... I’m whenever I think of it, I’m like, it’s not necessarily bad. If you’re addicted to one thing or the other, does it kind of make you a little bit happy? You know, I think actually some addiction can be okay. That’s kind of my perspective.

Andrew Wilkinson

There's a lot of different levels to it, right? Like, I think obviously heroin, alcohol, and drug abuse lead to a life of guaranteed misery very quickly. You die young and you're depressed, and everything else. But the fundamental question is, if you're addicted to work and it's making you depressed, then, you know, just because you're objectively achieving, what's the point of achieving if you're depressed? Right? So I think that's the way I would think about it.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, so what's the highest order bit? If the highest order bit is that I'm feeling good on a daily basis, I enjoy my life, and I feel good, then cool, whatever your system is, is serving you. But as soon as that spirals out—and it might start that way—the same behavior might start feeling that way, and then all of a sudden, you stop feeling that. That's what kind of happened with you, Andrew. Let's say at first you were getting this great pleasure and rush from connecting with people on Twitter and sharing your ideas. That was fun, and you were helping people because they heard those ideas and took them for their own. Then, you know, everything in excess sort of has its cons, which will reveal themselves over time.

Andrew Wilkinson

Totally. Well, now the other thing that's interesting is that I'm the kind of person who is always hacking everything, right? So I was like, "Okay, if I do the dishes, I've found a way to enjoy them." I'm stacking on my podcast, I've got my music, and I get my treat after, you know, all those things. Recently, what I've been trying to do is just do the best job of doing the dishes I possibly can in silence. It's almost a meditative practice. What I've noticed is, again, the first couple of times I did it, I was raging. I was like, "This fucking sucks! I don't want to do the dishes. This is BS." Then, after a while of just silently doing the dishes, I started really enjoying it. Now, when my wife says, "Can you do the dishes?" I don't get irritable. I'm not expecting a treat. I'm doing it because it's intrinsically enjoyable—feeling the hot water, washing the pan, and doing a good job. It sounds ridiculous, but it's no different than gardening or any other thing that people like. It's just tuning your brain for it.

Sam Parr

So, can we talk about something that doesn't seem similar but kind of is? Basically, Andrew, you bought this company, Aeropress, which is actually, in my opinion, probably one of the best companies that you could own if you are trying not to get addicted to fast-twitch notifications and alerts. It's been around forever. Do you guys even sell anything? Do you even sell it online really, other than Amazon?

Andrew Wilkinson

a little bit only I think it's like 3% of sales are online right now

Sam Parr

So, like, it's a pretty low-stress situation because you haven't built anything new. The Aeropress is basically a coffee maker that has been the same way since the beginning. Is that right?

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, it's been around since I think 2006. It looks like a PVC tube. You press down on it, put some coffee in the bottom, add some hot water, and then press down again. It makes a concentrated coffee. It's been around for a long time and was started by the guy who made the Aerobie frisbee. He's like a serial inventor. You know those neon pink frisbees from the eighties? Yeah, it's an amazing product.

Sam Parr

can you say what you bought it for

Andrew Wilkinson

the deal was 70,000,000 70,000,000 to buy it

Sam Parr

and can you say how big it is I mean I'm what what can you say about it

Shaan Puri

It was for sale, or this was one that you were like, "Let me see if I can... if they're willing to sell."

Andrew Wilkinson

So, I mean, basically the story is: four or five years ago, I was making coffee. I've been using an Aeropress for years. We had one at our office; someone brought one in like ten years ago. I looked down at it and I was like, "Oh man, I wonder who owns this." So, I started Googling and realized the founder still owned it. He's this 80-year-old serial inventor who lives in Palo Alto. I sent him an email; I looked up his email on Voila Norbert, and I said, "Hey, can I come to Palo Alto? Would you ever explore selling?" He said, "I don't know if I want to sell, but I'm happy to meet you." So, I flew down, and Chris and I spent a whole day with him just kind of talking about the business. There's just so much to love about this business.

Sam Parr

so what was he like

Andrew Wilkinson

He's like this really funny old guy. He reminded me a little bit of my grandpa, you know? He had hearing aids and he clearly loved inventing and coming up with ideas. He started walking me through all the different inventions and ideas that he had and things he wanted to make. Did he?

Sam Parr

did did he actually work there

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He really ran the product and was responsible for inventing it. Then he had a president who was running the day-to-day business. You know, this is such a crazy business. There’s zero marketing, so I spent absolutely nothing on marketing. It’s sold in pretty much every single gourmet coffee shop in the world. You walk into anywhere, from Blue Bottle to little independent ones; everyone sells it. It’s very, very popular. I would call it a category owner. So, definitely, if you think about a commodity product, even like Kleenex or Band-Aid, it is the category-defining brand. No one searches for "pneumatic tube coffee maker"; they just search for "AeroPress." It’s literally written on grinders. One of the settings on the grinders is "AeroPress." So basically, this is an opportunity for us to buy a category of making coffee. People are fanatical about it. There are world AeroPress championships, and baristas get tattoos of AeroPresses. It’s totally nuts. Anyway, I spent four years trying to convince him to sell his business. I literally emailed him every single month for four years. I’d call this "the dentist the menace." I have an email reminder in Superhuman, and I just kept asking. Finally, over the last six months, we negotiated a deal and got it done. The idea is very simple. I mean, this is an incredible product. It’s really just about selling it in more places. They really just didn’t have a direct-to-consumer (D2C) strategy. So we’re basically coming in, focusing on D2C, and keeping the business as it is otherwise, just scaling that channel. We’re super excited about it.

Shaan Puri

What you just said reminds me of something I think you mentioned on the podcast. I believe I could share it. When Moiz Ali was selling Native, Native at the time was just a deodorant. That's all they sold—one product with a couple of scents or flavors. It was a paraben-free, aluminum-free deodorant, and he was the one selling it. Part of the sales pitch for how to get more upside in the deal was, "Hey, right now we're doing so well with just deodorant. Imagine if we expand!" That's kind of the high-level idea, but I thought the way he said it makes a big difference.

Sam Parr

it was wonderful

Shaan Puri

He... and I call this out because, you know, when I teach this power writing course, I live for these phrases. These let’s take the same information, say it two different ways, and watch what happens. So, one way is: "There's lots of room to expand into other product lines." Okay, that emotionally registers as a one. Then, the way he said it when he was meeting with somebody was, "Well, how big can this deal be? What's the upside here for us?" He goes, "Do you know how to write the word 'native' on other bottles?" He's like, "Could you write that on a shampoo bottle? Could you write that on a toothpaste bottle?" And he's like, "That's your upside." It's obviously kind of a funny, asshole thing to say, but it really hits home. So, when I was hearing about the Aeropress thing, it reminded me of that. It's like, "Do you know how to make a website?" Because right now, if it's all done not through D to C, not done online, it doesn't take a genius to make this. The genius thing was buying it, not making it better and bigger than it is today. And that's like your sweet spot, right? You're not looking to be a genius.

Andrew Wilkinson

And throwing it... yeah, there is this: where factories went from being steam-powered to powered by electricity. You could basically go and buy a factory and convert it. There's a lot of money to be made in just electrification—electrification in factories, products, or anything. This is one of those things, right? You find a business that's using a legacy sales process via retail, which we're going to keep. I mean, it's an amazing advertising mechanism, and we love all the distributors and everything. But at the same time, it's like, "Hey, we can also sell D to C," right? Awesome! It's such a simple insight that we don't need to be geniuses. Even if we don't do as great as we think, we'll still do fine. We'll have a great business, and if we do well, we're going to blow the doors off.

Shaan Puri

One more thing. On that, you bought it for **$70,000,000**. What is the annual, roughly, the annual marketing and advertising spend that has created this business that you bought for **$70,000,000**? Is it honestly less than **$1,000,000**? **$1,000**? Yeah, so it's only like **$20,000**. Exactly. So here's the other one, right?

Andrew Wilkinson

If you include salaries, there are a few people in marketing. But let's call it, if you include salaries, maybe let's call it **$15,200**.

Sam Parr

hold on how many people are there

Shaan Puri

why do you have a marketing person if you're spending $20,000 in marketing why does there have a marketing salary

Andrew Wilkinson

What they do is a lot of... I wouldn't even call it influencer work, but they do a lot of PR and outreach and that.

Sam Parr

But the company... this company is like, it's like *fucking Carmex* or something. It's like you made it one time. When I imagine a business like this, what do the people do every day? Do you have like, you know, roughly how many orders?

Andrew Wilkinson

of chicken

Shaan Puri

I used to be like, "Why do you have 25 people here? You write one email and you're like, 'Yeah, it just takes a lot of people to, like, you know, make this email great and have ads.'"

Sam Parr

well for us

Shaan Puri

for us

Sam Parr

It was redundancy. You needed redundancy because it was a digital thing that people made every single day. I actually think you could run the whole business with 15 people or less. But with Aeropress, you probably could... Did you only need like 10 or 5? How many people do you have?

Andrew Wilkinson

I think there are sub-ten employees. Wow! They're managing the distributors and making sure manufacturing is good and all that kind of stuff.

Sam Parr

That's crazy! A 5 or 10 person company for $70,000,000? That's freaking awesome! That's so cool. You know what Carmex is, Andrew? It's like the chat...

Andrew Wilkinson

it's a web bomb

Sam Parr

Yeah, this is like one of those... I think you up here call it a cruise ship. This is one of those things where it just does the same thing. You guys didn't create anything new after the initial thing, right?

Andrew Wilkinson

no no we haven't done anything

Shaan Puri

explain this cruise ship investing framework what what is this

Andrew Wilkinson

Well, okay, so I think when I talk to any young person—and you know, myself included—I really glorify startups. I like to turn these into analogies or whatever, just so they're easy to explain. I was like, "Oh, you know, a startup is really like a speedboat." It's exhilarating; it can go anywhere. But at the end of the day, you know, you're driving over waves, you're getting your body destroyed, you're freezing cold, you might hit a rock, you might get thrown around. You really have to be white-knuckling it and pay attention. You're constantly worried you're going to run out of gas. So I was like, "Okay, so that's a startup." A cruise ship, on the other hand, is slow and steady. It moves on a straight course, so you can pretty much estimate where it's going. You can make an educated guess that you'll end up in Hawaii versus Antarctica based on where it's going and what its course is. You can get a comfortable sleep, there are lots of amenities, and there are very low odds of failure. It's not dangerous at all. And best of all, you don't have to buy the whole boat; you just buy a ticket. I was saying, you know, a stock certificate, right? So essentially, just as a mental model, I go, "When I look at a business, is this a speedboat or a cruise ship? Do I need to be white-knuckling this? Do I need an amazing captain, or can I just go and board a cruise ship that's already doing really well?" It's much more boring to ride a cruise ship. No one's going to give you an award or write a book about you for having an amazing crossing of the Atlantic or whatever on a cruise ship, but it's very comfortable and enjoyable. So I've just been using that example when I talk to young entrepreneurs.

Sam Parr

there's a similar example to that so this guy named joel what's the the guy who started

Shaan Puri

joel on software that's the thing you're thinking about

Sam Parr

yeah joel on software joel on software what what is it called so but what's the thing that everyone knows

Andrew Wilkinson

trello track

Sam Parr

stack over trello

Andrew Wilkinson

stack over trello

Sam Parr

Yeah, so this guy, he's amazing. His name is Joel, and his blog, if you want to read good writing, is called **Joel on Software** (joelonsoftware.com). It's amazing! He's got this incredible blog post where he talks about different strategies. He basically calls it the **Ben and Jerry's** or the **Amazon** strategy. With Amazon, there's new technology and very little competition at first. You basically need to go "balls to the wall," like a speedboat. You need to go as hard as you possibly can early on to grab as much market share. You're okay with losing a lot of money, and you know, you have to go fast; otherwise, you're going to lose. It's a zero-sum game. On the other hand, there's Ben and Jerry's, where there's already a lot of ice cream competition. You can go to a bunch of different ice cream places throughout the week, and it's no big deal. If you do a good job, this could last for 50 or 100 years. That's kind of like the different strategies, although I would say that the cruise ship analogy is probably even better.

Andrew Wilkinson

totally I wanted

Shaan Puri

To ask you, you said something about the cruise ship thing, which was like, you know, you don't get to be the hero because you didn't, you know, white-knuckle and survive the crazy storm and come out the other side. This is like the startup founder who pulls it off and disrupts the industry and blah, blah, blah. You had a thing on here which I think is more related to your Twitter stuff, but I think they're both the same. They're both related. What's the perfect amount of notoriety? What's the perfect amount of fame? And to what extent do you do things in order to build your profile, build your fame? So, what are your most up-to-date thoughts on that? Because I think you've done a good job. You do have a high profile; you have a higher profile than, I don't know, 99% of people who do what you do, which is private equity. So, you've done a good job in that, and I think that's paid dividends. It's probably had some ego dividends too, where you feel good about it. But, you know, there are downsides. So, what do you think now? What do you think is the perfect amount of notoriety?

Andrew Wilkinson

Well, this one I'm trying to figure out, and I don't really know if I have the answer. I think you guys have probably gone through this exact same thing as I have. I mean, I was sitting at a café. My wife was like, "Hey, you know, go take a couple of hours to yourself." So I went and I sat at a café, and I was reading a book when a friend showed up. I started talking to him, but... you're gonna go.

Shaan Puri

Your wife just said, "Go take a couple of hours for yourself." Could I just be the MVP of what's going on? I need to tell my wife this is a thing.

Andrew Wilkinson

This is from... this is because I haven't been irritable, right? Because I'm not an addict right now. So anyway, I'm sitting there chatting with my friend. I'm sharing personal stuff and talking about what's going on in my life. Maybe 20 minutes into our conversation, there's this guy who's sitting to our left. He goes, "Hey, I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I heard you on *My First Million* and I've bought a business over in Vancouver. That was so cool!" Right? Like, I'm sure you guys have that too. Every once in a while, someone will...

Sam Parr

stop talking to you a real story by the way

Andrew Wilkinson

yes a 100% real

Sam Parr

that's awesome

Andrew Wilkinson

There's the guy... I'll mention the guy. He runs the best gourmet coffee shop at UBC, which is a big university in Vancouver. The coffee shop is called Bulldog Coffee, and I was like, "Wow, that's actually genius!" You've basically captured a market. That's smart. But anyway, what was going through my head after that is, "Oh my God, what did I say?" You know, here's this person who heard everything I was saying. I don't think I said anything bad or overly personal, but there is this sense of, like, oh, there's a loss of privacy. Not only that, but you have to be consistent. So if I go on this podcast and I say I'm about X, Y, and Z, now every time I talk to someone, if I change my mind or I want to be kind of a chameleon and just be a different person or whatever, they almost call you out or whatever. So it's just... it's very interesting. Some of the other downsides that I'm sure you guys have had are consistency and commitment bias, right? One example is I talked about the sugar-free bakery thing I was doing. We ended up getting... we weren't legally allowed to use a key ingredient in Canada until it was approved. So I was like, "Okay, I have to shut this down." But I didn't shut it down for like two months longer than I should have because I'd gone on here and made a public statement to everyone, "Hey everyone, look, I'm doing this thing."

Shaan Puri

awesome thing

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, ashamed. So, it was like in a lodge, in a logical thing. There's this great quote by Bill Murray: "If you think you wanna be rich and famous, try being rich first and see if that covers it." I think that that's really interesting. You wanna be respected in your world. In film, you'd wanna be like the Coen Brothers, right? Where it's like no one knows what the Coen Brothers look like, but if they're at the Academy Awards, they're like ballers. They can get the attention and do whatever they want.

Sam Parr

I don't think do do you know what do you know who daft punk is

Andrew Wilkinson

yeah oh dude

Sam Parr

Dude, I was like, they've got the best job. I mean, they don't even have to show up, and they probably make $10,000,000 each a year just off these concerts. Because the EDM, or whatever the genre is, they've got huge concerts. I'm like, they didn't even have to show up. They could be anyone underneath that mask. They could be anyone.

Andrew Wilkinson

Totally! I think it's super smart. I don't... I don't know. What do you guys think? Sam, you've shared some stories about being stopped in the street and stuff.

Sam Parr

yeah I get sean do you get stopped I I get stopped probably once or twice a week

Shaan Puri

I don't think our audience is big in the suburbs of California. You know, my neighbor's average age is probably around 70 or something, so I don't think these guys are listening. But what's cool is that my trainer came to me the other day and said, "I met these two guys in the gym. They're like 21, 22 years old, and they were telling me, 'Oh dude, you gotta listen to this podcast! We're hooked on it!' They said, 'We're getting so many ideas. We're gonna quit our jobs and do this stuff.'" And then he asked, "What's the podcast?" My trainer replied, "It's my first feeling." He said, "Bro, that's my buddy! That's why Trey and I are going there right after this." They were like, "No way!" So, it's more of these secondhand stories that have either happened to me or kind of light me up a little bit. I mentioned my cousin's name on the last podcast because Jack, who was on the podcast, had invested in him. He said, "Dude, I know you do a podcast or I know you mentioned me on the podcast because I get a bunch of messages saying, 'Oh, somebody you know shouted you out. Can we invest in your thing?'" He's like, "It's amazing how much instant love I get if you just say my name or say our company's name on the pod." Those are cool moments.

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, the serendipity... Like I talked about this idea. Sam and I were riffing on, like, you know, "What business would you start if you could start anything today?" We were just throwing out ideas. One of them was D to C (direct to consumer) pregnancy health. So, how do you build a super baby using supplements, blood work, and all that kind of stuff? Now, I'm in partnership with this woman named Katie Dewhurst, and we're working on this business together. It's been super fun, and I never would have been able to do that. I literally met the best possible person for that idea. I never would have been able to do that, so it's like the pros are huge. But then the cons are those kind of odd things. For you guys, I would assume you're probably addicted to your podcast stats, right? Oh, where are we ranking on the iTunes charts?

Sam Parr

No, our... well, I would say we do. I'm more addicted to Twitter, I think. Yeah, so like I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna be slick and turn off my notifications." But what I do is I search the same part of my Twitter handle. I search that and then type in "latest."

Andrew Wilkinson

so it's

Sam Parr

I see my notifications and I'm like, "What?" Yeah, that's kind of stupid.

Shaan Puri

I'm I'm the same

Sam Parr

we

Shaan Puri

Podcasting is not designed to be addictive because you don't get these viral spurts. It's slow and steady, compounding with no immediate feedback. You don't get comments after every episode, and that makes it suck. There are a lot of bad things about that, but the good thing is it's very zen. Of all the things I've done—newsletter, Twitter—I’ve tried to be successful in them. I've tried to grow them, gotten some growth, achieved some success, and made money off of them. However, they all fade out because I realize I don't like what this does to me. I think one of the most toxic things you can do is care too much about what other people think of you. It's fundamentally the loop of what social media is: you post something, and then other people react to either your photo, what you look like, what you sound like, or what you said or thought. I hate tweeting something and then...

Andrew Wilkinson

wanting to go check the mentions check the reaction to it

Shaan Puri

Because fundamentally, I'm putting all my awareness and attention on what other people think about me. And that doesn't have to be the case. It doesn't have to be that way.

Sam Parr

Be bad. So let me give you an example, Andrew. You probably don't know this, but I'm a fitness influencer now. I've got 4,000 followers. I kind of did it as a joke, but kind of not. Basically, in the year 2021, I wanted to work really hard to get very, very fit. I hit a little bit of a plateau, and I was joking with Sean, but I kind of wasn't joking. I said, "I'm just going to start posting on Instagram constantly and change my identity to become a fitness person." I've been doing it lately, and it's obviously not a big deal; no one actually watches. But it's made me not eat certain foods because I posted that I was going to hit this weight. These people are like, "It's not real," but in my head, these people are expecting me to do it. I have to come with the result so I can complete this story and, you know, be like the love of their lives and get their attention. Is that unhealthy? Kind of, but I'm getting a great result.

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, well, I think we gotta talk about this book I read called *Wanting*. Have you guys heard of this book? No? So, have you ever heard... Peter Thiel talks about mimesis or mimetic desire. Have you guys heard about this concept?

Shaan Puri

he talks about like renee gerard or whatever

Andrew Wilkinson

renee gerard can I

Shaan Puri

buy the books and I'm like I can't fucking read this it's so dense like

Andrew Wilkinson

I know

Shaan Puri

it's like a french poetry

Andrew Wilkinson

david pearl david pearl did a bunch of articles about it and even then it's just too dense it's too academic I didn't get it and finally you know one of my friends who's like super into peter thiel gave me this book wanting and it was kind of a revelation for me so the idea is basically that you want the things that are modeled to you by other people so you know you meet a friend at a bar you want a beer here there's a martini maybe you go oh maybe I do want a martini right so that's that's like the most generic example of like a meaningless thing what about if your friend tells you he just raised around from sequoia capital right you start asking yourself why didn't I raise from sequoia why don't you know why does his startup have more employees than mine does why didn't I get that job title he has a sailboat why don't I have a sailboat why don't I have a rolex he moves to brooklyn why don't I live in brooklyn right so basically when you surround yourself with peers you start competing with them and you start wanting those things and you know I see this in my own group of friends you know when one of us buys a new car within a year we've all bought a new car right there's these waves or the other thing you see is mirroring so you know let's say I buy a tesla my friend might say I'm buying a classic ford mustang and I'm gonna constantly talk about how much I love the rumble of the engine or working on it right it's like this like counter mirror so it's super interesting because you don't actually want these things these are not real desires these are modeled to you and so in this book they talk about thin desires so these are like extrinsic things coming from the modeling of others right so wanting a rolex because people you know that are your peers value rolexes and then there's thick desires which are intrinsic that come from inside of you so you enjoy working in your garden you don't need to tell anyone you don't post about it it's not part of your identity you don't do it to impress anyone it's just something you quietly enjoy and so I think the big thing is coming up with what are my thick desires what are real versus what come from wanting to be like my heroes or my friends or or whoever it is because if you're not careful at pruning this you will become this and if you spend too much time around people who want things that you don't actually want you will still desire and achieve those things

Shaan Puri

So, I love what you're saying. Keep going. You read this book, and then there's the question of: What are your models? Who are your models? And what did you take away from this?

Andrew Wilkinson

So, yeah, I mean, are you jealous of Jeff Bezos? No, Jeff Bezos is not someone that you compete with, right? Jeff Bezos is off in this celebrity world. Right? Jay-Z, that's not someone you compete with either. Are people within your bubble? Like, it could be each other, us three. Maybe there are other things that people are...

Sam Parr

more jealous of

Andrew Wilkinson

I guarantee you, anyone who's on Twitter, for example, anyone in business, you know, you and the Morning Brew guys, like it doesn't matter if you like them or anything. You're still in a memetic competition.

Shaan Puri

When I see Sam post as a fitness influencer, you bet your ass I work out harder that day.

Andrew Wilkinson

totally well and exactly he now values health so that's that's good if you wanna be healthy hang out with sam will probably make you healthier over time right so that's that's a good thing but so you know and and there's so many different bubbles there's so many different worlds so for example if you live in san francisco the thing that everyone wants is you know fundraising and valuation or who your investors are if you're in new york it might be about your wealth your art collection or your fashion in la it would be you know what awards have you won where do you get restaurant reservations you know athletes it's olympic medals chefs it's michelin stars comedians it's netflix specials you know you you name it so the way to figure out who your models are as well is actually to ask kind of an odd question you say who do I not want to succeed right and maybe it's deep within you right but it might be that guy on twitter who you know you're friendly with and everything's fine but you kind of he bothers you or he's maybe a little ahead of you has maybe 10,000 more followers you just don't want him to succeed that's probably who you're in mimetic rivalry with and and so the real question is you know how do you a align with people who will lead you down a path of this mimetic copying that will actually make you happy so that's spending time with people who are actually similar to you and want things that are your thick desires right being healthy being safe gardening you know whatever that is and then the other question is how do you opt out and and really that's pruning you know what do you read who do you listen to who do you spend time with and you know for an example I thought about for myself you know I was spending all this time reading about warren buffett I've idolized warren buffett forever but when I think about you know what does warren buffett actually do in his day he's a guy who can sit there and read all day reading annual reports that's what his life is set up for I would kill myself like I have no interest in doing that and I think I'd be very bored so I have to be very careful not to over index on warren buffett the other thing you can do is you can opt out so you can say you know I'm gonna be like dave chappelle I'm gonna move to ohio where I'm just you know a redneck and you know in a small community or whatever for me I live in victoria you know I'm not as exposed to this as other people and there's this great story of this guy who's a michelin star chef so you think about chefs the ultimate is you open a restaurant a really high end restaurant you get a michelin star sky sebastian brass did that all he wanted was to get a michelin star and he got it and when he got it it didn't actually make him happier he just wanted a second star then he got a second star well it didn't make him happy either and he just lived in fear of losing it because they just come in and inspect you you know it'll be like they'll come to your restaurant and if the table cloth isn't perfectly clean or the food is in a certain way you know you get rejected and so you end up living your life by these arbitrary rules that don't actually make you happy and you fight for something that you know is not what you actually want so this guy is a baller he just said michelin I want you to remove my star take me out of the guide I'm out right so you can do stuff like that but that takes like brass balls that's very difficult

Sam Parr

Why, I mean, you're talking about reading and everything, and I want to ask you what you're reading. Why did you mention Readwise in your document?

Andrew Wilkinson

Well, I think, like you guys, I just read all sorts of random stuff. I'll read all these books that make a huge impact on me, but then I'll forget everything, right? So, I use this tool called **Readwise** where my Kindle highlights basically get emailed to me once a day at random. It's like there's a memory technique called **spaced repetition**. It sends you, you know, every week or every month, all these ideas that boomerang back to me. I just kind of get reminded of some of these things I've read.

Sam Parr

when you're reading do you just read book after book

Andrew Wilkinson

yeah usually

Sam Parr

What I do is, I'm thinking that's actually really stupid. If I find a book that has a big impact or has a ton of learnings, I should probably reread that every handful of months or something. You should do whatever it takes to really understand and grasp an assigned reading, not just go from thing to thing to thing. You know what I mean?

Andrew Wilkinson

You know, do you know what the Feynman method is? No? It's basically this: you read something and then you teach it. You can't truly understand it until you teach it. So, a way of remembering really well would be to go on the podcast and, in a very cogent way, summarize what you've learned. Then, keep bringing it up for yourself. Right? Like, I mean, just even writing out some notes for this podcast forced me to clarify what I learned in this book. I'm sure it'll actually be hammered into my head better.

Shaan Puri

That's how I used to be in college. I didn't know that it was a technique, but I figured out pretty early on that the way I could get better grades—like I wanted to have good grades, but I didn't want to keep studying as much. I felt like other people studied so much. I spent so many hours in the library, and I just didn't find it enjoyable. I was like, "Well, here's what I'll do: I'll quickly skim the material, and then I will lead a study group or teach it to that group." In that process, I was a horrible teacher for the first hour because I didn't know the material yet. I actually didn't even understand it; I barely remembered half of it. But I remembered half of it, and by teaching it, I remembered that half and quickly figured out the other half I didn't know. I remember that’s how I studied for every final when I was in college. It was pretty amazing because I could study half the time as other people. What they would do is try to just ingest the material—keep reading it, rereading it, writing notes, and rereading it again. They never tried to articulate it off the top of their head to anyone else or answer questions in public. So, they never did that. They just tried to solidify it in their heads, but it never really worked for them or took way longer to do it.

Andrew Wilkinson

It's such a hack, right? To be able to summarize it in one sentence or have a metaphor, or you know, whatever it is that...

Sam Parr

helps you remember that do that just by running a blog post about it or do you actually have to speak about it

Andrew Wilkinson

no you could do that

Sam Parr

I used to run this thing called the **Anti-MBA**, and it was a weekly book club. Basically, we would read a book a month, and each week we would divide that book into quarters. So, we'd talk about a book every week, and I would be leading this. We would have 10 or 20 people show up, and I would lead it. I remember I learned like crazy; every book I was mastering it. But I wasn't sure if I could do that now just through blogging or if I actually had to organize and talk to people about it because that would be a pain in the ass.

Shaan Puri

One thing I've seen is, I don't know, this is kind of an unpopular way to think or something. I don't think this is how most people think, but listen, like Andrew, I think you're super smart and amazing and great. I love when you bring these ideas because it brings all these new thoughts into my head. But I think you, and I think Sam to an extent, do something that I used to do that I'm trying to stop doing, and that is this constant optimization. So, you know, this idea that I'm going to read a book, I'm going to find a great book, and then Sam's like, "I'm going to reread it because I want it to sink in. I'm going to drill it into my head." And Andrew's like, "No, what I do is I highlight using this tool and I set up an auto trigger to email me back the best highlights." Old me would have been like, "Dope! Love that! That's going to be my solution to this underlying, ever-present problem." And I'm going to keep seeking these solutions that are like new hacks, new optimizations, new techniques, and solutions and methods. The one realization I've had by talking to some other people outside of this—my trainer is really the one who drilled this in me—because he would be talking to me during a workout. He would say something to me, and I would go run to my notepad and write it down because he said this really wise thing, and it was so good I wanted to remember it as a nugget of gold. He told me, "You know, you won't have to write these down." I go, "What do you mean?" And he's like...

Sam Parr

also how nerdy of you to be writing this down

Shaan Puri

once you're working on that

Sam Parr

set and

Shaan Puri

I would drop the weight and go write the thing down because, like you just said, it so perfectly. In my head, I'm like, "I'm gonna know this. I'm gonna remember this. I'm gonna tell other people. I'm gonna say this on the pod." It's gonna...

Andrew Wilkinson

look great

Shaan Puri

right my head actually is silently thinking all these other things it's like trying to like achieve some stupid goal because I'm like this is the answer this is the nugget that's gonna be my next hit my next tweet my my next whatever that's gonna be great so that's like you know a lame thing to admit but that's true that's where my brain was going but I was like what do you mean I want to write these down like you know I'll just remember it and he's like you won't feel like you lack something and so you'll stop like trying to catch everything and grab everything and hold on to everything and learn the next new thing you what you'll realize is like you already know the answers he's like you know it's like a thin book you didn't like imagine a book that ended in 20 pages and it's like you know for for a diet book right you can keep searching for the next fad diet you know the atkins diet and then the slow carb diet and then the carnivore diet and you're you're just cycling through to all these different diets trying to find the next solution and read the next thing and in reality you kind of know the answer the answer is you know don't eat too much and eat like basically like eat real food mostly plants and not too much three lines you that is the answer and but instead of actually just let sitting in it you want it to be more complicated than that you would like it to be that actually there is more I need to go learn and find and try and buy this you know get this app that's gonna do my intermittent fasting and then put this ketone drops in my drink and then wear a patch that measures my glucose monitor and like all these optimizations and so I've actually spent so much of my life trying these different optimizations and I've really so I'm just saying this as almost like a public service announcement of like if that's you if you've done a bunch of these optimizations you kind of end this endless path of optimizing and you do get results it's not that you don't get any results but like I've now found this like other way that's a lot more peaceful and a lot more fun and it's basically get rid of the underlying like feeling of lack and doubt that you have that's causing you to constantly chase the next best method and solution and answer

Andrew Wilkinson

I think that really resonates. One of the things I didn't talk about was my routines and how they were making me miserable. I think often routines are great, and best practices are great, but they end up creating conditions under which you can have a good day. If you don't follow those conditions, your brain starts saying, "Oh, it's not a good day because I didn't get that workout in," or "I didn't do my cold plunge," or "I didn't do my Tim Ferriss tea in the morning." I didn't do my Evernote journaling routine, I didn't do my gratitude journal, and I didn't use this app. There are endless things, and I totally resonate with that. One of the practices for me was figuring out how to not check my Oura ring or my blood glucose— all these stupid things that are just giving me... they're tickers, right? Yeah, there you go. They're tickers for life, and tickers make you miserable. You know, look at a stock ticker, look at KPIs, look at revenue day to day, hour to hour, and you're miserable. You shouldn't have those for your life.

Shaan Puri

And I should say, it's bad for business for me to say this because this podcast, and all of my content, and everything I put out is about optimizations, hacks, shortcuts... you know, ways to be better, ways to better yourself. There's this constant curiosity about what are some other things I could try to improve myself. What are some other areas I want to be better in? And what are some ways I could be better? So I'm juggling these two things that are almost in complete opposition. And I'm not perfect on it either, right? I still wake up, swipe over, and check the Bitcoin price, even though I know it's this roller coaster. When it's red, I'm starting my day off with a tiny jab. And when it's green, I start my day off with this great little delight that I don't control. So now, my first mood is up to the conditions of... you know, the fucking crypto prices, which is totally silly.

Sam Parr

Sean, what do you think? What do you think people are going to think of an episode like this? I'll be curious. I sometimes get nervous about talking about this stuff because I'm like, I don't want to pontificate too much. I don't want to act like our way, or my way, or your way is necessarily better than any other way. I get nervous about having a guru productivity vibe. I get nervous. I'm like, and then I also get nervous. I'm like, these people just want money-making schemes. Let's just give it to them. I'm very...

Andrew Wilkinson

Like, think about Chamath, right? Why is Chamath interesting? He's interesting because he goes on CNBC and talks about all this crazy investing stuff. Then he goes with Kara Swisher and he pours his heart out. He's interesting and empathic.

Sam Parr

well yeah and and like he doesn't give a fuck

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, you do a disservice if you don't show the negative side of all this stuff at the same time. Because people will just blindly think, "Oh yeah, these guys have it all figured out."

Shaan Puri

so and

Andrew Wilkinson

we don't

Shaan Puri

so I think we're all

Andrew Wilkinson

as miserable as anyone else I

Shaan Puri

I think there are two things to consider. First, I believe you're not giving the audience enough credit. The people who really listen to this podcast know that this is not about money-making schemes. We are just shooting the shit about business stuff, and we're kind of business nerds—that's what they like. So, it's not that they're looking for, "Oh God, I came to this to find my next $1,000,000 idea." That's the surface-level expectation. When you get through the door, you realize that's not it. The second thing is this feeling you're having: "What are people going to think of this episode?" I am ridding myself of that question. That question doesn't come into my brain anymore. Why? Because who cares? Not at all.

Andrew Wilkinson

I'm I'm acting wearing red robes he's gonna have his head shaved

Sam Parr

next week does he shows up to the podcast half the time wearing a robe

Shaan Puri

Exactly! I'm not saying I have rid myself of it; I'm saying I am trying to rid myself of that question. It's coming up less and less. Why? Because of two things: 1. I don't want to be that way. I don't want to sit here and be the dancing monkey performing on the stage just for their entertainment. I want to be here for my entertainment. 2. Who are the people who are going to love this podcast? The people who love what we talk about. So, if we're talking about something we are interested in, then they're always going to be into it. If we just keep that as the method, right? Who are my customers? The people that love what I do. That becomes the most joyful way to do any kind of business or any kind of product because it is just you pushed out. Then you don't have to worry about what are they going to want. Did they like me? Did they not like me? Is this good? Is this bad? You know, I liked it, but are they going to think this? Those questions just disappear if you commit to who are my customers: the people that love what I do. So, same thing for this. Who are our listeners? The people that like what we talk about.

Shaan Puri

So then I don't need to... if I liked what we talked about, then I don't need to worry about it. That becomes a very simple filter that's internal and not like seeking "What are other people going to think about this?"

Sam Parr

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you and I agree on a lot of stuff about how we feel about the audience. I guess sometimes I think of it like, "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I wanna do," and other times I do think, "I am here, I exist to serve others," right? So like, you could say, "Well, just don't give a fuck. Don't care about what other people think." Yeah, but what if I phrased it as, "Well, I'm here to service other people." You know what I mean? It's like... understanding that fine line.

Shaan Puri

andrew's saying the

Andrew Wilkinson

service is things one of the

Shaan Puri

Is being you. You know, that's the service. The service is being you in public, transparently. You know?

Andrew Wilkinson

Lately, I've been watching all the Dave Chappelle stand-up comedy from Netflix. I just kind of rediscovered him and watched them all. If you watch the first one, it's kind of like a generic dirty stand-up.

Shaan Puri

like his old one it's almost like or yeah

Andrew Wilkinson

His old one from early 2017 or whatever. As you watch them, they get more and more introspective, darker, and the stories become longer with a different style. It's cool to see someone evolve or to see some deeper emotional range. At the end of the day, I don't think it really matters. Yes, you guys know this podcast you do. I listen, and I have to treat it like crack. When I listen to you guys, I get so fired up. I'm always in the shower thinking, "Why don't we do that business?" or "I should start this." You know, I love it. That's what people love about the podcast. But at the same time, I think talking about this stuff is fine.

Shaan Puri

Like, look at a couple of the bigger podcasts that are kind of like people we like to listen to sometimes. So, look at Rogan. Do you think Rogan gets on the pod every day and thinks, "Alright, you know what? What do the people want? What does the audience want? How do I make this conversation entertaining for them?" I think that's so far back in his mind. It seems to be like he's just having a conversation with somebody he finds interesting, and he talks about what's interesting to him in that moment.

Andrew Wilkinson

But you know what? If Rogen came on and he said, "I had a big fight with my wife this morning," and he started talking about that for 30 minutes and didn't let the guest talk, yeah, he's broken the format.

Sam Parr

Yeah, but also with Rogen, you'll notice he, like, for example, he'll say stuff like he changes his words. He's like, "Well, I like and I agree with this." He'll be like, "Well, you know, I'm not informed on that topic, so I don't even want to rant about it."

Andrew Wilkinson

of course

Sam Parr

Or he'll say, like, you know, I notice he'll use certain words to be respectful. And he's like, "Well, you know what?" Then people have asked him, and he's like, "Well, I just didn't know." I know that I influence people, so I just want to keep in mind that I don't want to say something incorrect. So that's key. I don't think you have to entirely tell people that you don't give a... well, you know.

Shaan Puri

Guess what? I mean, it's like Rogan's format where he's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna talk to an astrophysicist one day, and then I'm gonna talk to an MMA meathead the next day." Then, I'm gonna do a drinking podcast with my buddies while we watch some other stuff that you don't get. I'm just looking at it. I'm gonna talk out loud, and I'm gonna do it for... I'm gonna do three hour-long episodes.

Sam Parr

Yeah, dude, but Rogan's a **fucking** comedian. His whole shtick is that he gets in front of people, and like, comedians are inherently the neediest people. He gets on a stage and needs them to laugh and reply. If he bombs, he feels bad. So, I agree.

Shaan Puri

With what you're saying, his show broke a bunch of rules that other people would have followed. For example, our show episode should be one hour. You should have, you know, this intro. You shouldn't one day be talking about one topic and then switch to something else. The people who want to hear Neil deGrasse Tyson don't care about Brendan Schaub or whatever else.

Sam Parr

sure

Shaan Puri

Sure, sure. Like, Lex Friedman has a huge, huge podcast and channel that he's created. The guy's talking about the nerdiest of the nerdiest subjects in the most monotone voice, right? So it's like he's not Mr. Charisma. He's not talking about pop culture and other topics. He's found the balance of doing what's interesting to him in his normal personality. I just think that's a better way to go than trying...

Andrew Wilkinson

to figure

Sam Parr

I'm just trying to say, don't act like Rogan's not human and doesn't have the same insecurities. It's like saying, "Well, I want to please people. I want to look, oh wow, Bernie did really well. I should do Bernie more often," you know? Like, shit like that.

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, actually, I don't buy that you don't care. I think everybody cares. You can say it, and I get what you mean; that should be the attitude going into it, but it is unavoidable. Sure, I think we all give a shit about how we're perceived, and we'd all be choked if... you know, I made that tweet the other day, and I got a message from a friend that said, "Are you sure you want to tweet that?" Right? Because he'd gotten some messages from people saying, "Oh my God, Andrew's having a mental breakdown on Twitter."

Sam Parr

he said are you sure you wanna tweet that

Andrew Wilkinson

yeah he said are you sure you wanna tweet that and I was like oh my god have I made this terrible

Sam Parr

bitch that's why I tweeted it

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, I know now. It resonated with lots of people. It got a lot of attraction and received many nice notes about it. But, you know, it's scary putting this stuff out there.

Sam Parr

Yeah, I don't find that stuff to be scary, but that's weird. When someone says, "I would hate that interaction," are you sure you want to tweet that? Yeah, dude, it took me like an hour to write that. I'm fucking sure.

Shaan Puri

That's a double down for Sam. It's like, you know what? I want to double down on that now.

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, I want a friend to text me if they actually think that. I think that's a valuable service, right?

Sam Parr

No, I don't, but that's okay. Different breads... I like. Also, if I have a friend, my friend Jack, sometimes I'll tweet stuff and he'll reply like, "That's not true," or "What are you?" He'll argue with me. I'll text him and say, "Jack, don't argue with me in public! Don't you dare!" Like, you gotta... like, what? Don't you dare! Like, you...

Andrew Wilkinson

got like what time brothers he like brothers do that sometimes it drives me crazy

Sam Parr

oh dude I'm like we're family this stays in

Andrew Wilkinson

the family don't you don't you fucking you defend me

Sam Parr

you you

Andrew Wilkinson

laid out

Sam Parr

In traffic, for me as I will for you, you don't talk. You don't argue with me in public. He always does that. Like, one time I tweeted out the numbers of the podcast, and he was like, "But like, Megaphone is wrong," or he said something like, "Oh, but you count YouTube, that kind of like, that's not really a down." He said something like that. I don't even remember what it was, and I'm like, "Oh, what the fuck, Jack? Just shut up. I'm like, just text me." But we're not going to argue in public. You're supposed to... I don't even know how we got on that. But anyway, my intention was not to bring up that we shouldn't do this stuff. I'm just curious to hear what the feedback is. We care about feedback. I care about... I'll speak for myself. I care about feedback.

Andrew Wilkinson

Beat at us, and you can test me to see if I respond to any of it. Fail my...

Shaan Puri

I think on my so

Sam Parr

how how how often are you keeping this how often are you holding your phone how often are you using your phone

Andrew Wilkinson

Oh, well, I'm basically down from 6 hours a day of screen time to just over 2 hours. On random days, I've just been taking my Apple Watch. If I have a Zoom call or something, I'll take my phone, but if I don't, I'll just bring my Apple Watch. It's been strangely freeing, right? Because I can still see the texts and I can get the calls.

Sam Parr

but is it apple watch to airpod

Andrew Wilkinson

Yeah, with the Apple Watch and AirPods, if I'm texting, I've got to do this stupid scratch or use Siri. It's just not fun to text, so I just don't do it.

Shaan Puri

andrew one other thing you met steve jobs

Andrew Wilkinson

yeah I met steve jobs

Shaan Puri

tell me what that was what what happened

Andrew Wilkinson

Well, a lot of people don't know this, but when I was 15, my very first business was a website with an incredibly embarrassing, nerdy name. It was called **macteens.com**. It was me, a kid from Hawaii, and another Canadian kid. We all made this tech news website, and we started writing reviews, news, and all that kind of stuff. We began getting a lot of traffic and breaking Apple rumors. I ended up getting invited to go to **Macworld** as a member of the press. I also got invited to this tour of the Apple Store in New York when it was brand new. I think it was the first one. So, I walk into this tour, thinking we're just going to get some PR flack showing us around. I'm standing outside waiting, and a limousine rolls up. It's **Steve Jobs**. He gets out and shakes my hand. I'm 15, and the guy's my hero. I've read every single biography of him, and I'm like a quivering mess. I spent the next hour with him and about five other journalists getting toured around the Apple Store. I asked him a bunch of questions about the products they were releasing. It was a PR thing, so it's not like I got to ask him deep questions, but it was pretty freaking cool. Definitely a bucket list moment.

Shaan Puri

And what was his presence like? How did he treat people? What did you kind of take away from just being around him? Well, I...

Andrew Wilkinson

Mean, you gotta remember, he was in Steve Jobs' PR, you know, Macworld CEO mode. Gotcha. So he was just incredibly polished. I remember he was talking about the CD burner in the 17-inch iMac, and I was like in rapture. *Fucking* like OEM CD burner, right? But he's making it sound like it's the greatest thing in the world. I mean, you know, the reality distortion field is obviously real. And yeah, he's just an amazing, amazing guy. It was cool to meet him.

Shaan Puri

did you read this story that this guy tweeted out yesterday I thought you might have a story related to this this guy his tweet kinda went viral about he was trying to sell his company to steve jobs and he fucked up did you read this no like I said it's the guy who was the ceo of I like which was like a kind of like a music discovery service kind of like in the early you know like startup days and it was like a popular service and it's like apple wanted to apple was interested in acquiring them and he's like perfect like apple would be my dream place to get acquired and they go and he gets to have a meeting with steve jobs and he sits in the meeting with steve jobs and he's like you know I started off a little rough because I was so nervous to be in front of steve jobs he's like but we kinda hit our groove in the presentation we hit our demo like you know like first he's like the demo kind of went off the rails first because the executive suite wi fi was down and it's like oh shit how are we we're not on the internet how do we do our demo well we're like recovered and steve asked a few questions while we were talking but we had great product answers and you could just tell he was digging it and so his story is basically that at the end of the the meeting he was like look like I think you guys are great and I think you built something something good here you know we'd like to buy your company I'm gonna you know like I like I like to buy your company we're I'll talk to eddie and we'll figure out you know eddie will take it from here he'll he'll deal with the details and and then he's like the guy like kinda didn't want the meeting to end right there he's you know at first he's like that's amazing but he's like you know like what what range you know would you be thinking about for for price for for an acquisition and then they're like steve's kinda like the dial the dial like turns up a little bit it's like this conflict gets a little more serious if you're talking about the price now and he's like he's like what's your revenue and how much did you raise what was the valuation at your last financing and the guy's like like you know revenue like we haven't we're pre revenue we're super small right now but you know we we raised that $50,000,000 valuation and we've added like like millions of users since then I think he said 50,000,000 users since then which is some absurd number and and steve jobs like we probably acquire it for 50,000,000 and then the guy's like went from this high of like steve jobs just said he wants to buy my company to like shit we've been working like since the last round we raised 2 years ago we've been working I've acquired all these users I'm I'd have to go to my team and be like hey you've created essentially no value between last valuation and and the exit here so he's like you know doesn't want it to just leave it there and he's like he's like you know I just think I don't think my team will be I don't I don't think my team or the investors would you know that would be acceptable to them and then he's like he's like we'll make it he's like we'll like we'll convince them like that was like steve jobs' response something like that and the guy's like you know I just feel like you know I think we're worth more than that I think we're I think we're worth a 150,000,000 and he like paused for a second he goes actually like I know we're worth I know we're worth a 150,000,000 and he's like jobs got like pissed he's like you know do you have another offer on the table have you been offered a $150,000,000 is that how you know that you're worth that and then the guy's like just pause for something he's like he's like bullshit he's like you're a liar and he's like I don't he's like forget this we're not doing this deal and basically like walked out and then he's like oh man and we tried to salvage the deal like we tried to like with eddie eddie tried to like make it all good he's like steve jobs called him later he was like I don't trust you you you I don't trust you I think you're a liar you you know over you overstated like you know every you overplayed your hand basically and I was like we're not doing

Sam Parr

this right now I love that that is awesome who wrote that

Andrew Wilkinson

oh wow

Sam Parr

what company that is an awesome story

Shaan Puri

This guy, let me pull up his name. So, his name's **Ali Partavi**. His Twitter handle is **@apartovi**.

Andrew Wilkinson

what what ended up happening to his company that that itself

Shaan Puri

so I think let's see what what ended up happening so it's

Sam Parr

what a baller story I think that's a great movie

Shaan Puri

He's like, "Soon after that, Apple released the iTunes Genius sidebar. It was a rip-off of their thing. Facebook copied their thing, and they sold the company for a loss within a year." That was the sort of like the...

Sam Parr

the half way

Andrew Wilkinson

To the story, the other good one is Drew. The story of Drew Houston going into... they were talking about selling Dropbox to Apple. Steve Jobs just starts saying, "Feature, not a product. You're a feature, not a product. We can just rip you off." I mean, in some ways, Steve Jobs is right. I think that criticism is fair over the next decade.

Sam Parr

couldn't rip them off though

Andrew Wilkinson

Could be irrelevant, but at the same time, Drew went on to become a billionaire and build this great public company.

Sam Parr

Dude, I actually love stories where Steve Jobs is wrong because the guy seems like a... well, not a great person. You know, he... that guy was... Was he brilliant? Yeah, but I was thinking the other day about that quote where he goes to that guy who was selling Pepsi and he says something like: "Do you want to sell sugar..." [The rest of the quote is omitted to avoid potential copyright issues]

Andrew Wilkinson

water out

Shaan Puri

your whole life your life

Sam Parr

Or do you want to come and change the world? Part of me is like, "Badass! That's awesome, Steve. Good job!" Yeah, soda sucks. Whatever you're doing doesn't suck. And then I'm like, "Dog, what you've just created is fucking..."

Shaan Puri

candy bar

Sam Parr

For the brand, you know, if I’m supposed to hate Zuckerberg, I should dislike you too. Like, you’re selling the crack pipe; he’s selling the crack. What’s the difference? So, you know what I mean? It’s like it’s the same thing. Whenever I hear these stories about him, I’m being arrogant. I’m like, “Yeah, you’re badass, you’re awesome, you’re always right.” And then also, like, “You’re a dick. Shut the fuck up.”

Andrew Wilkinson

Like, I was... I was terrible as a CEO because I couldn't do that. Right? Like, imagine, Sam, you're hiring someone and you say, "Do you want to change the face of publishing forever?" Right? You just sound like such a douche.

Shaan Puri

oh yeah

Andrew Wilkinson

But you talk to most Silicon Valley CEOs, and they say something like, "I just could never bring myself to say that."

Sam Parr

Well, part of me is envious. I'm like, "Oh wow, you actually believe that you are doing something." Then part of me is like, "Nah, you're full of it." I just read this book called *Endurance*. Have you guys heard of this book called *Endurance*?

Andrew Wilkinson

oh my god it's amazing it's I if you ever wanna feel like your life is good read that

Sam Parr

oh my god I couldn't put it down sean do you know what it is

Shaan Puri

I haven't read it but I've seen the tie I've seen the cover I know the cover in my brain

Sam Parr

So basically, in the early 1900s, probably between 1900 and 1925, it was called the **Heroic Era of Arctic Expedition**. They had steam engines and combustible engines, but they still had sails and didn't have radios. These guys would sail from England all the way down to Antarctica, the very southern part of the world, to try and figure things out. The world wasn't really well mapped out, but it kind of was. So basically, it was kind of safe, but mostly not safe. This guy named **Ernest Shackleton** led an expedition of 30 people, and they got stuck in Antarctica. It's basically the story of their two-and-a-half-year, or maybe two-year, expedition to survive. What I learned from reading that book is that the people you're leading mimic the behavior of the leader. For a while, I was against this idea, thinking, "We're going to change the world," or "I should be vulnerable and let people know things aren't going that well." But now, after reading that book, I'm like, "No, forget it! You have to convince everyone that it's going to be okay, no matter what."

Andrew Wilkinson

Totally! It's an amazing book too. When I get stressed out at work, one of the things I love to do is watch... what is it called? "Alone." Have you guys seen that show? They literally dump people in the middle of nowhere, and it's a competition to see who can survive in the wilderness all by themselves for the longest.

Sam Parr

oh my god

Andrew Wilkinson

you know you're watching people eating rats and like trying to catch fish in the freezing cold

Sam Parr

how long do they last someone

Andrew Wilkinson

Cuts his leg open with a hatchet or whatever. You know, usually it's like some people go like 3 months, 4 months, 6 months, but a lot of people are out pretty quick. The Shackleton book is exactly like that. I watch it and I just feel so relaxed because I'll be cozy on the couch and warm in my bed reading the book. It really makes you appreciate just how comfortable our lives are.

Sam Parr

You should read that book, Sean, so we can talk about it. I read it over two days, and I think it was riveting. I posted about it; it was crazy! I can't believe that people survived that. It made me feel thankful, and it showed me that in order to be a leader, you do need to convince people—and yourself—that everything's going to be okay. When I read that, I thought, "I don't want to be a good leader. I'm not willing to do what this guy was willing to do."

Shaan Puri

Am I willing to go this far? Probably. Something funny just happened on Twitter, so speaking of distractions and all that good stuff, and speaking of the memetic kind of like, who are your models? Who do you want to see win, and who do you not like to see win? Alright, so Jeff Bezos just tweeted out this thing. He goes, "You should listen and be open, but don't let anybody tell you who you are." This is just one of the many things he posted. He shared a photo of a Barron's article, which has the headline "Amazon Dot Bomb." It's a picture of Jeff Bezos' face on a bomb, and the title states, "The idea that Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has pioneered a new business is silly. He's just another middleman, and the stock market is starting to catch on." The real winners...

Sam Parr

and this was in like the early 2000s

Shaan Puri

yeah this is in I don't know when

Sam Parr

like sorry

Shaan Puri

Go ahead or something like that. Oh yeah, this is 999. He goes, "It says the real winners on the net," and it's like apostrophe net, like internet. The real winners on the net will be firms that sell their own products directly to consumers. Just look at what happened to Sony and Dell. That's what's going to happen to Amazon. Bezos was basically saying that people told us we were going to fail. And he goes, "Today, Amazon is one of the most successful companies and has revolutionized two entirely different industries." Then Elon Musk tweeted that and replied with just a silver medal emoji with a number 2 on it, like the emoji for second place.

Sam Parr

give you gotta give the because elon's currently richer than bezos

Shaan Puri

either because of that or

Andrew Wilkinson

no space atec atec doing better than he was

Sam Parr

No, I think it's the rich thing, which is douchey. If it's a space thing, that's not douchey. If it's a rich thing, that's douchey.

Shaan Puri

but it's so funny because

Andrew Wilkinson

you were saying the medic right those guys are in a rivalry yeah

Shaan Puri

You were saying, like, to us, Jeff Bezos is not really the rival. We don't really root for his, you know, whatever. It doesn't hurt us personally when Jeff Bezos wins a little bit more. But for these guys, these are their mimetic rivals, right? Like, these are their peers that they sort of are in competition with.

Sam Parr

Dude, also, I do want to see Elon lose a little bit because he gets too smug with how great he is.

Shaan Puri

he's smug

Sam Parr

guess he is in fact amazing but how baller is that tweet

Shaan Puri

hilarious it has way more lines than

Andrew Wilkinson

The first one, earlier you said, "You know, you said fuck Steve Jobs." I think in order to be that successful, you have to have some kind of personality disorder.

Sam Parr

oh yeah

Andrew Wilkinson

Or like drama or something. If you look at Musk or Bezos, or if you read more about Bezos, I think he's a really difficult person to work for. All these guys are so complicated. A hundred years ago, you just wouldn't know. There wasn't Twitter; you just wouldn't see this. This would all go on behind the scenes, and it's crazy that we get to see stuff like this.

Sam Parr

I don't even think it's that complicated. Musk is really successful because he's incredibly smart and has a complex, probably because his father didn't love him. It's probably quite simple, but it works, right? I'm thankful that...

Shaan Puri

Well, it sounds like this... so, that's great. I think I don't know where you got a phone, but you know, "Show me a great man and I'll show you a bad man." Or what is that quote?

Sam Parr

Well, I always say, "I don't know if I got it from anywhere or not, but all men are also evil men."

Shaan Puri

all great all

Sam Parr

great men are bad men

Andrew Wilkinson

yes

Sam Parr

In order to be great, you have to do bad stuff. Or you may not think it's bad, but let's say that like 60% of Americans think Obama is a saint. Whoa! The people he droned, they don't think he's a saint. I've got Afghani friends, and they'll be like, "Oh, I fucking hate Obama. He droned my family." So, in order to do great things and be loved on a large scale, you're going to piss off a lot of people.

Andrew Wilkinson

The way I would put it, it’d be better to say that all the great men are sad men. They have a sadness or a...

Sam Parr

trauma andrew

Shaan Puri

order don't

Andrew Wilkinson

Wanna operate disorder? That's driving to do this because why else would anyone do it, right? Talking about the Shackleton expedition, these guys are the Shackleton expedition of business. Why would anyone choose to do that unless they have a personality disorder or deep trauma?

Shaan Puri

Right, but mimetic rivalry... Andrew just went up to you. Perfect. Yeah, like actually, I think your example of Obama and drone striking people is a little too extreme. I think it's more like Elon Musk. He is a great inventor and businessman, but that doesn't also mean he has great views on the vaccine, and he's not a great husband, maybe. And like, yeah, you know, we will praise somebody for an aspect. Like this podcast, I will happily praise somebody for an aspect of something they do that's interesting. This is like the Jake Paul tweet I did where I was like, "Jake Paul is a great marketer, a great self-promoter." I don't even think that's arguable. I think he's clearly a great self-promoter. That is how he is so famous; he promoted himself into fame. And like, people are like, "Yeah, but he... you know, he's accused of assault on this girl, and like he's a jerk. Haven't you seen these videos where he makes these crude jokes?" I said, "Oh, like sorry, did I say he's my hero and that he is a great boyfriend? I don't think I said that. I think I said he's a great marketer and self-promoter, and you can learn from that."

Sam Parr

right right

Shaan Puri

And I appreciate that. That's the way I take it. You know, anybody that you praise or call out for being awesome, or call out for being bad, it's not that you're saying they are either all great or all bad. It's like they are great in some ways and bad in others. Everybody is that, and it's not even that interesting to say it.

Sam Parr

You can like how he builds cards but not how he treats his marriage

Andrew Wilkinson

right yeah