Email Marketing & Why All Content Creators Should be Using SendFox | My First Million 06/18/2020

Noah Kagan

I think I've chased opportunities to make money which have been fleeting. They've been profitable but fleeting. And I think when you're in your twenties, you should do those frankly. You should just do the things that are like hot and exciting if you think you want to make money. Then in your thirties, you start reflecting more like, "Wow, mortality is real. What's really important?" And I think you'll come back to finding how do I work on problems and things that I want created for in my own world.

Sam Parr

no what's going on

Noah Kagan

sanpar in meetings all day and I'm heading out to california in 4 hours

Sam Parr

So, I was just... I haven't been on this podcast in a minute because I was in Austin. I drove from California to Austin. I hung out with Noah, Neville, and a bunch of people. Now, Noah is coming to Malibu.

Noah Kagan

I'm coming to sf for a month and then I'm gonna go to malibu for a month

Sam Parr

where are you staying in san francisco

Noah Kagan

andrew chen's house in mill hill

Sam Parr

That's right, you told me. I've decided that I'm going to get rid of my apartment in San Francisco, and I'm going to live in different cities for one or two months each.

Noah Kagan

We're copying each other, Sam. You went bald, so I went bald. You're moving places, so I'm moving places. I need to get glasses... a dog.

Sam Parr

well yeah you need you need a few things noah

Noah Kagan

I need a few things here for me

Sam Parr

we we know each other well but can you tell the listeners who you are

Noah Kagan

What is up, you sexy listeners? Noah Kagan here. I'm a cyclist and a chess player. Lately, I'm making a lot of content on YouTube about everything I'm learning at AppSumo.com. That's youtube.com/okdork. I helped start AppSumo.com, which is the number one site online for software deals. It's an 8-figure company that has been around for 10 years. I was number 30 at Facebook and number 4 at Mint.com. The two other things that I like working on and playing with, business-wise, are SendFox.com, which is a free email list for content creators, and OkDork.com, which is my site about overcoming fear, starting, and marketing startups.

Sam Parr

Noah and I have known each other for 6 or 7 years. A while now. I think you're 5 or 6 years older than me. We're very similar personalities; we're a little crazy. We have a bunch of different ideas. Would you say that's accurate?

Noah Kagan

yeah I didn't like you for a long time

Sam Parr

why

Noah Kagan

So sometimes you'll hang out with Sam. If you guys have hung out or had the chance, you'll hang out with Sam. He's like, "How much money are you making doing this one thing?" It's like someone asked you, "How big is your penis?" You're like, "Dude, I don't know you," and you're asking a really personal, kind of aggressive question. It's almost to the level of transactional; that's just a little too much versus what you'd expect from a friend. I think sometimes it's interesting to observe the people or companies that we're jealous of or the companies we're reacting negatively to, and really trying to understand that in our first experience. I think, if I recall, you wanted me to come speak at the Hustle Conference.

Sam Parr

I wanted you to speak at an event. You asked me to write a blog post for you, and I wrote this blog post.

Noah Kagan

and then

Sam Parr

you didn't publish it and I was like what the fuck

Noah Kagan

There were just weird vibes I was getting from you, and so it didn't make me excited to want to do anything. Then you sent me like a NutriBullet or some kind of item, and I was just like, "This guy weirds me out. I don't like how he's behaving." Over the years, though, I've started to appreciate your quirkiness. It's probably like me; I'm sure some people listen to me and think, "Nah, I don't like the style." I think the goal for everyone is not just to go and accept everyone and love everything, but to observe our jealousy, observe our negativity, observe our criticism, and think about what we're really trying to say about ourselves or learn about ourselves. One thing I would say about you, Stan, that I've appreciated is that it's interesting to observe the people in life who get what they want. Those people often hide all the things they're not getting. I really respect how persevering you are. There are a lot of times when I'm like, "Oh yeah, this guy is going to quit soon." The hustle wouldn't be anything without effort, and you just kept going and won't stop. I think more people have to realize that some people are like, "Well, I don't have that. I'm not Sam Parr. I'm not Noah Kagan." It's like, "Yeah, you're yourself, which is even better." It's just about finding the things that you'll never want to give up on. So find your hustle, find your AppSumo, find your okdork.com, and just find something you'll never quit on and then go for it. That's one thing I definitely appreciated watching your journey from afar.

Sam Parr

You said you didn't like me or I rubbed you the wrong way. Were you saying that because of jealousy? You're saying you think I was jealous of you, or are you jealous of me or not?

Noah Kagan

I think at the time I just found you kind of... I was uncertain of your motive. I didn't spend, like, 6 years so I'm not exactly sure. I don't... you know, I do have... I do spend most of my days thinking about you. I think everyone's favorite story is themselves, so if you ever want to talk to someone, be like, "Hey, you know what I noticed about you?" and they're like, "What?" But I think feedback is a whole other thing we can talk about. I think I just had a weird vibe and I didn't know what your intentions were. And I think what was interesting is like other friends of ours were like, "Oh yeah, he is a good dude," and he is, but I was like, "I guess I'm missing something."

Sam Parr

So, let's... we're going to talk about business in a second. I think this is kind of an interesting conversation because what has brought us to be friends is our mutual friend, Neville Madora, who is both of our best friends. He was the best man at my wedding. You have a brother, but had it not been for your brother, Neville probably would be in that category for you as well. It's interesting how we can both see how our loyalty to one person brings out good qualities in each other.

Noah Kagan

I think neville said I'm his number 1 I don't know if you talked to him recently

Sam Parr

well we can fight over that

Noah Kagan

is that what he says in bed to both of us

Sam Parr

He's like, "No, I never said he said I was number one." But, you know, we both are. We're both loyal to similar people. So, let's talk about different interesting companies and businesses that we're both looking at. You and I are the same in that we're both pretty big schemers. Not that we do stuff all the time, but we both like to figure out how things work. What are you looking at? You're really interested in the email space with SendFox. I'm interested in that as well. What interests you about email? Why are you... because AppSumo is pretty successful. You don't have to start new stuff if you didn't want to. Why are you choosing SendFox?

Noah Kagan

I think choosing one of my favorite books around the words that you use is *The Dalai Lama's Art of Happiness*. I love that you would choose "right" because I don't *have* to do anything, I *want* to do things. I don't *need* to do stuff, I *want* stuff. And I think it's interesting for all of us to be aware of that. Namaste, everyone. I think... in my life, one of the things that drives me is curiosity.

Sam Parr

and

Noah Kagan

I think in terms of business, if people out there, you know, listen to this and say, "Hey, I want to get my business started," the best business to start is something that solves your own problem. For me, I was using Mailchimp, I've used ConvertKit, and I've checked out AWeber. I found them way too expensive and way too complicated. It took me like 45 minutes to set up a Mailchimp email. So, I was like, "I just want something more affordable and simpler." That's why we built SendFox. I think that's something where I'll keep working on it forever with the team. What's interesting is trying to think about what's going to happen in the next 6 months to 6 years and then how do I stay a little bit ahead of everyone else. So, if you think about it, let me ask you, Sam: Do you think there's going to be more or less content creators in the future?

Sam Parr

absolutely more

Noah Kagan

So, I think the one problem that I noticed with all the channels like YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, or any of these is that ultimately they are incentivized to get you to pay to talk to your audience. Why? Because they have to make money. Email is the only channel I've ever found that can scale communicating with an audience that you can fully control. And so I think if SendFox becomes the number one place for people to grow their audiences: 1. I want it for myself, number one 2. It's just a really big and interesting opportunity to work on

Sam Parr

We send... how many emails do I send a year? Maybe 600 or 700 million. I don't even know, to be honest. How well AppSumo probably has a similar amount of emails, like 100 or 1,000 million sends per year. I pay... I think I pay $10 or $15 a month to send those. Does that sound right?

Noah Kagan

I don't really know. I think there are two things that are more interesting to me: 1. I've been focusing more on the total audience that you have available because email is a component of your audience, right? So you actually have like Hustle Facebook, Hustle Instagram, Hustle YouTube, Hustle podcast, and your total active audience. And there's overlap. That number I'm actually more fascinated with. 2. The second thing with email... I think the metric cost is one thing, but I think the metric that we... [Note: The sentence trails off without completion in the original transcript.]

Sam Parr

you said send you said sendfox was trying to make it cheaper because you're because you were more affordable

Noah Kagan

I don't like the word cheap more affordable

Sam Parr

Yeah, more affordable. What I'm asking is, how much does that cost to send? For us, we send...

Noah Kagan

I'll tell you, if you take 0.0002 and then multiply it by how many emails you send, the thing that Mailchimp, ConvertKit, and all these guys do is that 0.0002 times your number. So, they make money if you don't send emails.

Sam Parr

because they make money off your subscriber

Noah Kagan

Of course! The way SendFox works is that it's free, and then we have a one-time payment option. Most people don't actually email, so we're trying to fix that and work through those kinds of challenges with people. The other thing I think people need to consider when growing their community or starting a newsletter is this: if you don't have one, start it today at SendFox.com. The most important number is not your email list size; it is your **active email list size**. This refers to the number of people within three months who have opened and clicked your emails. You know, I've had 100 out of 1,000 subscribers. In my total lifetime with Okay Dork, I've had 175,000 subscribe to the newsletter, but my active audience is only 55. Think about that!

Sam Parr

Yeah, and that's what we do too. But we churn people every 3 months. We sunset them, like where we send them an email and say, "Hey, you're going to get taken off this list."

Noah Kagan

what percentage is it

Sam Parr

I don't know off the top of my head, to be honest with you. But I know that, like, one thing I could tell you is that our open rate is really, really high right now. It's at **55%**, and I think the average person stays for **2 years**. So, you could somehow figure out what that is. Yeah, but if we don't get them on the hook right away, then they're never going to get on the hook.

Noah Kagan

how do you get them on the hook

Sam Parr

Your welcome email needs to be really good. Your thank you page, after they sign up, needs to be really good. You know this... this is what you did, no?

Noah Kagan

it's good to do here's the thing I'm still learning well you had the

Sam Parr

Even your unsubscribe page needs to be great, which you didn't. You have a really good unsubscribe page.

Noah Kagan

Yeah, but I gave up on that one. I think the thank you page and your welcome thing are like two of the most neglected pieces of marketing.

Sam Parr

Yeah, I call them like you have to make the forgotten parts really good. So, like your thank you page, your welcome email, your unsubscribe page—just like little Easter egg stuff like that needs to be good. But to make them good...

Noah Kagan

yeah

Sam Parr

Well, I get accused of stealing CD Baby's welcome email, which I didn't even know what that was. But then when I saw it, I realized, "Oh yeah, I can totally understand why people see this." I think I stole that. But my welcome email was a really detailed welcome email. It was really long and explained what happened when you signed up. It was pretty funny. If you Google "The Hustle welcome email," a lot of people wrote about it. People seem to like that. So just being creative and writing long-form content about what happened after those types of things when those people signed up, it works pretty well. Now, let's say ConvertKit is doing $20,000,000 a year in sales. ConvertKit's awesome because I like the guy who started it, and they reveal all their revenue numbers. If they're doing $20,000,000 in revenue, like you said, you were trying to make SendFox more affordable. I have no idea how much they actually charge or what their cost of goods sold (COGS) is in order to send all those emails.

Noah Kagan

Point 002: It might be 0.0015 times how many subscribers or how many emails they're sending a month. The profit is all in the people who don't email. Basically, I think of email marketing companies as very expensive hosting. You're paying a lot of money to host zeros and ones—digits that don't cost anything. More importantly, if people are trying to start businesses, that's a really interesting business to start. It's also an interesting business to disrupt. I think Substack has done amazing with it, coming at it from the perspective that "Hey, email's actually free, and we're going to make money on the subscription part, so you don't have to pay for email anymore." The same goes for SendFox. It's mostly free, and we're focusing more on YouTubers and podcasters. So, it's about identifying the audiences that aren't really emailing enough or don't know how to email for this specific type of audience.

Sam Parr

I think a market for that is musicians' bands. I think there's a huge opportunity. If you look at the money where musicians make it, it's in concerts. However, they're horrible at notifying you when they're coming into town.

Noah Kagan

what do you want

Sam Parr

you type it type in right now

Noah Kagan

I was typing some notes. Dude, relax! But yeah, I think musicians... I mean, I think you have to serve a customer that you have an understanding of. I think a lot of these entrepreneurs out there are like, "Oh yeah, let me go help musicians." I'm like, one, I don't know anything about musicians. I'm learning to play piano; it's right here. But the thing is, I think we... it's not that you shouldn't go outside of your comfort zone. I just think that there are easier ways to achieve success. Too many people make it too hard on themselves. It's just like, go into your own problems or go into the problems of people around you that you have easier access to.

Sam Parr

what about have you been looking into amp for email

Noah Kagan

Yeah, some of this stuff... I mean, there's also talk about "Hey, email's dying" and all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know. People are still using it left and right. I've seen AMP, where it's like a little bit more dynamic and faster loading emails. I think the most important thing about email is not necessarily the layouts and all that stuff. I think the most important thing is how do you build a relationship where people are expecting your email? Like, if I stopped emailing or if "The Hustle" didn't come, they're like, "Something is wrong with my day." Until you get to that, you're probably worrying about the wrong problems.

Sam Parr

Yeah, I mean, that's the hard part. Obviously, that's like how do you create... I mean, that's just about creating good stuff. But I still think the whole AMP thing is actually super interesting. What I'm working on is a few ways to hack it because I'm kind of obsessed with storytelling in email. So, what can you do? If you think about it, what is a GIF? To me, a GIF is a movable image that has no sound. Well, so is most of the video that you use on Instagram or Facebook. It's just audio or it's just a video with no sound. A lot of times, you don't even click to listen, you know what I'm saying? So, what I'm interested in is how can I use AMP to tell a story in an email in a video format? Or like all these other hacks like that... that's incredibly interesting to me.

Noah Kagan

I think there's something there with that. The thing that we've been doing with SendFox is that we've been building in two major components that I think are lacking in email: 1. How do you build in what The Hustle and Morning Brew have, which is building referrals? We've basically built that in, so anyone can have their own referral engine within emails.

Sam Parr

because I think by the way that was a that that was a huge pain in the ass for us

Noah Kagan

No, no. So, we built it and it works. I'm doing it on... Okay, so if you go to **sendfox.com/noah**, you can see how it looks or sign up for yourself. It's built in for free. I think the second thing that we're observing is that everyone wants to know, "How do I grow my audience and how do I send consistent emails?" Because if you're not sending something weekly, you get forgotten. In this age of attention, we're all fighting for it. So, we built this thing called the **Weekly Newsletter Template**, or I think they're branding it **Smart Campaigns**. The idea there is that we suck in all of your social information and we look at what's most popular. Then, we basically just recommend, "Hey, here are the three things that you should email your audience this week." That's what I do every Wednesday. I just pull two of my favorite things and one of someone else's to try to spread joy and love and build relationships with people I don't know yet.

Sam Parr

how many people are working on sendfox

Noah Kagan

I think there are 2 developers, 1 designer, and David is the GM. Maybe like 6 in total.

Sam Parr

So, hey, you see... hey, long. Obviously, you saw that. For those who don't know, **Hey.com** is a new email service. It's pretty neat! I don't know if it's going to be big, but I definitely think it's cool that they are trying that. I actually think it will be big, but that's irrelevant. What that company did, it started by **37signals**. They have a team of about 50 people, and they make money through **Basecamp**, I think, right? That's their main thing. They've used all those profits to fund **Hey**. I don't know how many engineers they had on that, probably a lot. It's pretty robust already. At my company, what I'm trying to do is take all of our profits and launch more stuff. How are you figuring out how much of your profit to allocate to these side projects, like **SendFox** and these new products?

Noah Kagan

So, the way that we've approached it recently is a little bit more structured. The way that the question that we ask is basically two things: 1. Can we make our money back within 18 months?

Sam Parr

got it 18 months

Noah Kagan

So, will we make breakeven money back in 18 months? Secondly, is it at least a 7-figure decision? If it's not a 7-figure opportunity, we won't do it. The reality is that the majority of the money is best spent on whatever is making the most money from a capital standpoint. Some of that type of stuff is short-term versus long-term. With SendFox right now, the number we made our money back immediately because there's only one developer part-time and one GM. As it started becoming more profitable, it was like, "Alright, well, let's keep it. Let's make sure it's a 7-figure business." Now we're focusing on, because we know it's a 7-figure opportunity, how do we get this to be a $100,000,000 business or whatever?

Sam Parr

whatever yeah bigger

Noah Kagan

But we're more focused right now on building our goal, which is an active audience. I think one thing with company metrics is how do you align your customer success to your company metric success, your company north star. So for SendFox, right now we're at 1,000,000 active audience members. This means that of all our subscribers, we reach 1,000,000 active customers through them. If we can grow that number to 3,000,000, that's our goal this year. Then all of our customers will be more successful, and we will be subsequently more successful as well.

Sam Parr

so how long has it been how long have you had people working on it have you sentbox

Noah Kagan

It's about 2 years. I mean, what's fascinating about this, just as a quick side note Sam, is that there's a discussion internally. Not a debate, but there's discussion internally that if we would have spent all the money and time that we built on SunFox, KingSumo, HaulDrop, MeetFam, and all the things we've done just on AppSumo - the main thing - would it have been a $100,000,000 business today? And... the likelihood is yeah.

Sam Parr

Well, that's why I'm asking these things because I'm going through the same process, right? I'm like, "Man, I got this cash cow." And a lot of people listening, they also have the same thing where they have these companies, but... like we're **degenerates** and we can't *not* make shit. It's like... well...

Noah Kagan

Our greatest strengths are generally our greatest weaknesses. For example, my greatest strength is igniting; I can start something quickly and I'm really fast. However, my greatest weakness is consistency. I always think of it as being a great igniter, but not a great consistent source of fuel. You have to find that balance of who is your fuel. For me, Eamon is fuel, and David over at SendFox is fuel. Then I can focus on the igniting part. I think that's where you can find success in life: identifying what you are amazing at and just doing that stuff. It's hard because we often feel guilty or weak, but it's about finding the people who can complement you in those other areas. Take another example: my two favorite examples that everyone knows are Netflix and Amazon. How many revenue streams does Netflix have?

Sam Parr

a a lot

Noah Kagan

No one... Netflix has one monthly subscription.

Sam Parr

oh I thought you said amazon amazon they have a no

Noah Kagan

Netflix... Netflix. Yeah, but I'm saying Netflix is worth $200 billion from a $9.99 a month subscription. So, Amazon, on the other hand, is worth a trillion, and they've got, in terms of significant revenue streams, probably like 3 or 4. I don't think there are many different ways of eating a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. I think you have to kind of figure it out for yourself what style of business you want. For me, with mine, I literally thought about this this morning. My ambitions and enjoyment and fulfillment come from promoting dope stuff, which we do in AppSumo, sharing what I'm learning while doing that, which is happening on YouTube and my podcast, "No Kagan Presents." Then, making things that I want for myself, which is SendFox. I'm like, "Can I just do this till I die?" Or maybe I'll do this till I can live forever. I think that's what we're all striving for.

Sam Parr

So, Sean is joining us now. Sean just got out of a... can you say where you were, Sean?

Noah Kagan

something more important

Shaan Puri

Depends when this meeting is going to air, but yeah, I got pulled into something very interesting. I will share probably a month from now.

Sam Parr

got it okay so

Noah Kagan

tea you cock teas man

Shaan Puri

I know I know

Sam Parr

So, we're talking to Noah about... well, you heard a bunch of different stuff. Noah, can I ask you? I did a podcast recently where I talked about delegating and hiring like a CEO and general managers. I've learned how to do this through reading a few books. I learned how to do this from talking to David Hauser, who we're friends with. I learned how to do it through talking indirectly, like learning from you. I would talk to Eamon, I would talk to you a little bit about it, and I would talk to Neville. What was your process like for doing that? Because you have three or four... how many GMs do you have, or whatever you call them?

Noah Kagan

I think there are three GMs right now. So, there's HaulDrop, there's AppSumo, and then there's SendFox. David does SendFox and KingSumo. I think what's actually interesting, taking a step back, is how many CEOs do you think there are in Amazon?

Sam Parr

ceo title or or or job description

Noah Kagan

people who were ceos in their own businesses that are now running divisions of amazon

Sam Parr

a 100%

Shaan Puri

like a 100 + easily

Noah Kagan

Yeah, exactly. And so, for the people that want to start their own business, if you can figure out how to align their incentives and their motivation within your business, it's how you create a trillion-dollar business. And so...

Sam Parr

There's a bunch of big examples of this, by the way. There's Alibaba, Rocket Internet has done this wonderfully, and it sounds like you're doing it well. Who else has done it well? Amazon has done it well. There are way more examples. A company I'm obsessed with is Coca-Cola. The Coke family, the Coke Industries, they've done this as well.

Noah Kagan

oh cock

Sam Parr

I always call it cock but I get corrected that it's coke

Noah Kagan

who cares just call them rich

Sam Parr

the old white fucks

Shaan Puri

no I mean I don't know if

Noah Kagan

They're... well, they're difficult, but I think in terms of delegation and leadership, one of my superpowers is just my observations of greatness. Here's something: who really cares about that? What I would do as a listener—and this is what I still do to this day, even though I'm almost 40—is anytime you notice anything impressive, reach out to the person. That's it. Over your lifetime, figure out how to get around that guy or girl. I think that will lead you to easier chances of greatness. It's a lot harder to go out and try to date and find people from the ground up. It's much easier if you're like, "Man, the people I worked with at Facebook were honestly the best ever." Literally, the best ever. So it's like, "Oh shit, I need to figure out how to be around them more." I haven't been able to keep in touch with them because we had a falling out, obviously, but it's like, "Alright, how do I have more of that?" For example, Garrett is the lead developer on SendFox. He built a WordPress plugin that I bought for about $100 six or seven years ago. I then asked him, "Hey, can I pay you $25 or $30 an hour to fix it?" He was so impressive, and he did it for a year. I told Chad, my business friend, "Dude, this guy is incredible." I said we just need to hire him full-time, let him do whatever he wants, and pay him whatever he wants. That's pretty much what we've done now. He works at SendFox, and his output is remarkable. So, I think with GMs and things like that, ultimately, you want to find the people that blow you away. You want the people who want to run their own businesses. Then, two things: you want to give them a challenging goal, and you want to give them some boundaries, and then leave them alone. That's the simplest and most complicated thing to do.

Sam Parr

Can you elaborate on that more? So, I've hired a president of my company, and it's pretty great because I get to offload all the tasks I don't want to do. He likes to do them, so it works out well. Where I struggle is that I still tend to get in his way. I'm like, "Hey, this sucks. You need to fix it this way, this way, this way, and this way." Are you doing that with your people?

Noah Kagan

so let me correct you they're not my people

Sam Parr

the people who you work with

Noah Kagan

Yeah, I think that's a big difference. I know it might sound like, "Oh, well, it's no..." but I never say "employees." I never say "it's mine." Is there the technicality of do I own more of the business than others? Yeah, but I think if you want people to be leaders, they have to lead. They can't ask for permission to do it. You know, a lot of times, one of my favorite lines that I've been saying in the company lately is when people ask me something, I say, "Who's in charge?" I say this a lot; I probably say this at least once a day. I'm like, "Who's in charge?" They're like, "Me." I'm like, "Yeah, damn right, it's you! Don't fucking look at me; I don't know." So I think the more that you... the way I've been looking at myself lately with the team is, "Where's my excellence, and where can I do the best job of coaching?" I hate when I heard that because when I've heard that, I'm like, "What does that mean? What are they coaching?" So let me be specific. With Dork, I've hired a team of four people to help build out my brand and to help spread the message of overcoming fear and starting businesses. These people went through the gauntlet to get the job. I'm clear on where they want to go; I'm very clear on where they personally want to go. So my job is to help them get what they want. It's kind of like the Jim Rohn quote: "If I can help them get what they want, I can get what I want." I think I learned this when I got rejected from Microsoft for a job. I had an internship, and you know, when you intern, you get the job guaranteed. You know about that, right? Most times when you intern, you get the job guaranteed. I was like one of the few that didn't get it. It's like, "Damn, I'm an underdog, man. I'm still fucking fighting." But I did learn something in the job interview that I've never forgotten. He said, "Here's the best way to lead." I'm like, "Tell me." He said, "The best way to coach is you give them the football, you tell them where the end zone is, and you say, 'Hey, here are the boundaries to get to the end zone. How you want to score is up to you.'" I think what I've learned really well over the past two years is you don't want to be a seagull. You know the seagull theory?

Sam Parr

no you come in we're just we're just chirping at them

Noah Kagan

Yeah, you come in, shit, and fly away. I was doing a lot of seagull theory for a few years.

Sam Parr

did you coin that or is that a thing I mean is that your your phrase

Noah Kagan

yeah

Sam Parr

oh that alright cool

Noah Kagan

Well, I didn't... I don't want to be shitting on people and flying away. I think it's about how to lean in, Sheryl Sandberg's style, and step into these challenges. What I always admire is solution thinking. Am I coming in and complaining? Am I bringing more problems, or am I bringing more solutions? In terms of coaching, like with Eamon who's running AppSumo, especially lately, I feel like more of an advisor in a very effective way. I think it's a really fine line because you don't want to resent. So, Eamon wants to do this one thing recently, and I'm like, "Do I just let him do everything and resent it, like, 'Oh, fuck you, man, I totally disagree with you,' or do I say, 'No, Eamon, do this thing. You must do it my fucking way. It's the Noah Kagan way'?" My dad used to say this when I was a little kid: "My way or the highway." I was like, "Dude, I am 8 years old. I don't know what you want from me." I don't think it could be either way. I think it needs to be somewhere in the middle. I don't want to feel resentment towards Eamon. I don't want it to be a dictatorship because the worst thing you could do when hiring someone is demotivate them. That is probably one of the dirtiest things you could ever do to anyone. I've done that twice to Eamon and Chad, and they both said it to me. I felt really bad about it. I want them waking up thinking about it and loving it, which is what you want from a lot of people on the team. So, I think with Eamon, ultimately, it's about saying, "How can I be most helpful?" A lot of times we have goals, he has boundaries and budgets, and the question I ask is, "How can I be most helpful?" At the end of the day, if he's driving the results, I don't care how he plays the game, as long as the score is looking good and it's within the boundaries.

Sam Parr

go ahead sean I think you have I'm I'm a student at the moment I think sean had something to say

Shaan Puri

What's up, Noah? Hey buddy, sorry for joining late. I've been following your blog for a long time. I remember you wrote a bunch of stuff that was like, you know, "I walked away from $100,000,000" or whatever it was.

Sam Parr

I

Noah Kagan

didn't walk away I got fired but yes

Shaan Puri

Yeah, you know, my $100,000,000 mistake or whatever it was. But I’ve pointed to a bunch of your tools, and I just want to pause for a second and say one of the ways I got good at marketing is by stealing your stuff. If somebody out there wants to get good at marketing, especially content marketing, go read the stuff about how you built Mint and how you built your own personal brand. Just go observe the meta of what you were doing. Look at some of the spreadsheets that you linked out; that stuff is actually pretty useful. There’s usually a fine line between skepticism and learning. I always have this big skepticism when somebody spends so much of their time telling me how to do something. I think, "Well, how much of your time are you actually spending doing that thing?" Are you one of those people who gets rich teaching other people to be rich? The thing I liked about you and a few others that we vouch for on this podcast is that there are some people who have actually done it. They’ve grown things from scratch to scale several times. They’ve probably fallen over and failed a couple of times, but they just like to talk, share, and enjoy the feedback loop of sharing that knowledge and those experiences. They’re legit. So, I would say, go back to the archive. I haven’t read any of your new stuff, but go read the archive—the OG stuff—because it was really good.

Noah Kagan

Thanks, bro. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I'm doing recently in terms of marketing... I think overall, you know, when I fill out applications... Like I was filling out... I'm signed up for relationship therapy starting next week. She's like, "What's my occupation?" and I always write "engineer" because that's what I always dreamed of being. But I'm not... I don't think I'm smart enough. So I faced it this time when I was filling it out. I deleted that and I was like, "marketer." Marketer kind of always seems kinda like a...

Shaan Puri

**Therapy starts here.** You wrote "engineer." You're not an engineer. What? Like, let's forget your relationship.

Noah Kagan

But so anyways, I think what I've accepted is that I've never been a marketer. I'm just a promoter of greatness. I'm looking for it, sharing it, and exploring it in myself. I think the thing that I've done recently, which is simple marketing 101, is with my YouTube channel. That's been our big focus. So, I think there are a few things in marketing—I'll say three things that I think are the simplest. Number one: how about just having a singular goal? Facebook did it, AppSumo.com has done it, and I think with my Dork World, helping people overcome fear and start businesses, I'm kind of having a bunch of goals. I'm like, "Here's our TikTok goal, here's our Instagram goal, here's our email list goal, here's our organic traffic goal." I'm like, "What is our most important goal?" I realized we should just pick one for some time. So, I've come to the realization that let's just focus on YouTube and be okay with that. Guess what? That'll rise all other ships. So, don't be ignorant of those other ones, but just focus on one. The second thing is that as I was doing a lot of this content recently, it has gotten me really fulfilled. It feels good... feels great.

Sam Parr

on youtube or okdork.com

Noah Kagan

<FormattedTranscription> Mostly YouTube... mostly in the YouTube world. The second thing that's been most critical—and this is really hard because everyone says they do this or wants to do this but doesn't—is: Who is my audience? Who is the audience that I really want to be helping and communicating with? Because on one hand, I want to connect with like 9-figure CEOs and 10-figure CEOs. You know, I actually don't think there's a lot of content on how to go from 7 to 8 or 8 to 9 figures. I can share how we do it, but that audience is really small and they don't really need as much help. So we've realized that our audience is guys aged 25 to 40 who have tried to start a business but haven't been successful. They are afraid of failing and need a little bit of help. I think the second part of marketing that I've been revisiting is: Who am I really trying to talk to and what are the words? Here are some words that we've even identified that our audience resonates with: "rat race," "freedom," "self-doubt." Those are some of the things that I'm thinking about. Then the third part that we're considering, which I think is applicable for every business, is: What is your unique strategy for success? With that, we have two parts. 1. What's our core message? This is our unique "bread and butter" that you will know. I was talking with Ramit about this and he said, "You have so many messages, just pick three." So I was like, "Alright." The three are: "Challenges to overcome," "Fear," and "$1,000,000 weekend," and "Behind the scenes of an 8-figure company." That's the three that we're going to do, and that's it. </FormattedTranscription>

Sam Parr

the wait say that again so those 3 are the 3 what the 3 basically let's

Noah Kagan

Take a step back. 1. **What's your goal?** Pick one goal. 2. **Who is your customer?** 3. **What are your core messages** that people know you for? For me, those are the three things I'm going to be known for. **Challenges:** I always tell people to do the coffee challenge, which is to ask for 10% off when you buy coffee. You're going to be afraid, but you're going to learn about yourself and grow. Secondly, is the behind-the-scenes aspect of your company. Not a lot of people have that experience, and I can provide that. The third part is how you actually get a $1,000,000 business or a $100 business started in a weekend, which I've done many times and can share. That's unique. The last part of this marketing equation that I'm exploring and revisiting is: **What is my unique strategy?** I think where I've been very successful is that I just do a lot of stuff, and eventually, something works. However, I believe I will be even more successful by slowing down and being a little more thoughtful with these things. Our unique strategy lately has been to do the fast stuff but on lower-risk items. So basically, tweet, and post on Instagram and LinkedIn—just throw it all out there unlimitedly. Then, based on what works, we align it to our core messages. That's what we'll go deeper into. That's what we'll write a blog post about, do an interview about, or create a YouTube video about. It's just about having a higher likelihood of home runs. That's what we're doing.

Shaan Puri

and how would you

Noah Kagan

hi sean you're muddled the mic like you you look like a therapist

Shaan Puri

yeah

Noah Kagan

tell me how you really feel

Shaan Puri

so how old are you you said you're almost 40

Noah Kagan

I'm... I look and feel 32, but I'd say I'm about 38 in physicality in our society. Not physicality in our... whatever traditions of 38.

Shaan Puri

okay cool human years I am 32 and I look and feel 38

Noah Kagan

so you do look 38 bro

Shaan Puri

I'm trying to go the other way. So, I said I would love... if you were 21 again, with no network and no name brand, starting from scratch, and you didn't have to go the same pathway you went. I'm curious, you know, if you had the luxury of picking any path now that you know of so many more paths than you probably knew about when you were 21, what path would you go down?

Noah Kagan

honestly I think I'd copy my path

Shaan Puri

which which would be what so you're 21 what do you do

Noah Kagan

I'll tell you exactly what I did I didn't know what the fuck to do so I went and tried a bunch of stuff out to figure out what to do I think the only I think one question is what delta would I have chosen and I'll tell you exactly what that was so at 21 I didn't know I didn't even know what a b s was I got I got it from berkeley I was like oh bachelor of science is cool everyone kinda follows a stream right like when you graduate from college which I I think less and less is becoming important everyone's like oh get a job go to intel go to wherever and I was like okay I guess that's what everyone's doing but I've always wanted to start my own company I just didn't know what to do and so I think the 2 things that I did really well when I had that day job at intel was I use that as my investor and the 2 things I'd recommend is that I started a lot of businesses so if you're like I don't have any idea 2 things you can do 1 go to sendfox.com and start a newsletter and send an email once a week for 365 days or for 52 weeks that's number 1 or number 2 go on youtube take the ryan holiday challenge and post a video on youtube for 30 days start there the second thing that I did is that I connected with people very aggressively and I asked anyone I knew for anyone that they knew that was really smart that's how I met tim ferris that's how I met orin hoffman dave mcclure james hong max levchin ramit sethi I basically put on events I hosted lunches I organized conferences I didn't know anyone but I wanted to bring smart people together so if you don't know any smart people find 1 smart person say hey you should meet this smart person and then just go and hang out with both of them guy and girl guess what you could do on zoom if you're in remote country or if you don't have any connections I think one of the ones I've really observed lately every person I've hired that's been the most impressive has done 2 things they've offered something for free to a value that I've wanted and they did it without asking and those people live in the most impressive and guess what now they're like hey I wanna meet this person I wanna do this thing I wanna grow here I'm like that most of them are now working with me and so I think I would have that was something very early on I was very aggressive on meeting people and just trying to build my brand in terms of career I think the 2 thing one thing I did very well is I was really great about following my curiosity and things I was really excited about so I really loved facebook and I really loved mint and and I was like I'll do whatever it takes to work there I think the only difference I would have chosen is find someone 10 to 20 years ahead of me that I think is doing the things I would like to do in 10 to 20 years and be obsessed or aggressive in figuring out how to make them excited to wanna be a part of my life so I had one guy doug hirsch who was my boss at facebook and it didn't really work out as well for as a mentorship but it's nice because like you can say oh that's how you do a relationship oh that's how you do a career and it'll shortcut it you just have to figure out the real most important thing is how do you get them to give a fuck about you and the best way to do that is help them with whatever things they're working on

Sam Parr

So, I think it's just... you wanna hear something crazy, Sean? I don't know if you know this, but I... I don't know if Noah knows it, but I launched my... I created my company, which is like, it's an okay company. It's been good for me. It started because Noah had a blog post about organizing conferences. I was like, "What was it called? It was called like, 'How I Made $90K Hosting a Conference' or something. Was that it, Noah?"

Noah Kagan

mhmm I made a quarter of $1,000 in conferences because I I didn't know I was gonna make money doing them

Sam Parr

Yeah, so I saw that and I was like, "Well, I had a book club at the time." I was hosting these meetups, but I didn't make any money from it. I thought, "I should make money off this thing." So, I started my company, and I've made **$1,000,000** personally off conferences because of that blog post. More importantly—or maybe not more importantly—I’ve met all three people on this call and most of my friends and coworkers.

Noah Kagan

do because of that blog post

Sam Parr

Because of that blog post, I met Neville. I met Neville, the best man in my wedding, because of that blog post. Good for you! So, what you're describing—hosting events—is similar to posting content. I did the same thing, and it made me **$1,000,000**. It also helped me meet all of my best friends that way.

Noah Kagan

Awesome! I mean, I think the only other thing that I was doing at the time that I think everyone should do is, number one, **build your brand** in some way. Even if you're not trying to be a personal brand, I think practicing writing is a skill you can use in sales, development, design... you can use it almost literally forever. I think the connection's very valuable. Literally, probably the reason I'm a multimillionaire is because I've been able to meet, help, and connect people. The third thing was that I was starting a lot of businesses. I think what's beautiful is that, especially earlier in your life, your cost of living is so low. My cost of living is still low because I haven't grown up in some ways, and I'm maturing in certain ways. It's so low that you should take a lot of risks very early on in trying a lot of things out. For example, when I was working at Intel, I was doing college consulting. I did a thing called NinjaCard.com. I was putting on these conferences that I charged for. Then I was working at Mint, and I started doing Facebook apps. I created all these games and started making a lot of money. I was working at morning, on weekends, during lunches, and at nights. I kept going and trying a lot of things. Eventually, after probably two and a half to three years, my side hustle finally became my main hustle.

Sam Parr

Did any of those... like, I have a good friend, Encore. I don't know if you know him, Sean, but me and Noah do. He did the same thing with online stuff; he created Facebook apps and Facebook games. When I think of that, I'm like, "Dude, that is just some scammy get-rich-quick shit." Is that an accurate assessment of what those were? Because I was a little bit... I was too young to be doing that in 2010 or whenever it became popular, or I wasn't interested in the internet. Is that an accurate assessment of what those were?

Noah Kagan

I think what's interesting is how do you become a part of it. I think what's more interesting about the Facebook games, besides whatever people spam or not spam, is how do you be around the tidal waves. I think where I've been very fortunate and lucky is that my career has been a mix of being an ambulance chaser and a visionary, or maybe a little bit of both. I was in the Facebook game world, the personal finance world, the social networking world, the SaaS world with Sumo, and the e-commerce world with Shopify. Lately, I'm back in the content world. What's been beautiful about that, especially in AppSumo, is that I've been in the software world, which has been amazing. The incredible part about this journey is that it has opened up a world where my life is more rich—not rich monetarily, but rich in fulfillment—because of all these really cool people I've gotten to connect with. For example, I got to meet this guy, Nick Nimmin, and I'm going to talk with him on Friday about videos. Then, I met this guy, Javier Mercedes, who lives in Austin. He came over and showed me how to adjust lighting. He said, "Okay, look, let's switch lighting here, let's switch lighting there." I think what's amazing is trying to figure out which category is going to be big or which category you're interested in, and then how to interject yourself into that conversation. You might think, "Well, I'm not a developer; I don't have any e-commerce products to start." Guess what? Start a YouTube channel reviewing those products, or start an Instagram account where each day you post, "Hey, here's my favorite e-commerce product of the day, and here's why." You could also start a newsletter on Sunfox.com, like, "Hey, here's my weekly e-commerce product of the week," and email that company saying, "Hey, I just promoted you this week." One of the easiest things that anyone, especially early on, can do is to flatter people. Legitimately, don't just bullshit because it's obvious, but genuinely flatter them. Say, "Hey, I love your stuff." That's an easy way to open the door. Then, do what you can to start helping people. So, I think I've been lucky and intentional about what I'm curious about, what's becoming more popular, and how I can connect with people that inspire me.

Shaan Puri

I would also say, like Sam, I wouldn't call those the Facebook game era. There are a whole bunch of other friends that we have who started or caught their first big wave when the Facebook platform opened up. For example, the very first episode of this podcast features Sully. That's how he caught his big wave; he made a Facebook app called "Superlatives." It was about saying which of your friends is most likely to end up in jail or, you know, goofy stuff like that. I know some of the Low Laps guys listen to this, and they were the fastest growing company in the world at the time. You know, you'd launch a product and get to 10 million users in a day. That just breaks your mental model of the world. So I think two things: 1. You're right, but the people who go there are the type of individuals that sniff out interesting spaces before they're proven out. If you're that type of person, you're going to end up in a lot of those types of situations. 2. You get this crash course on hypergrowth and marketing in a way that's like, you can't learn anywhere else. Like this guy who sold TBH to Facebook recently.

Sam Parr

oh yeah yeah yeah

Shaan Puri

do you

Noah Kagan

get it

Shaan Puri

this thing out yesterday that was like it

Sam Parr

was good

Shaan Puri

First-time social app founders are like, "Oh, we're going to build a platform for intellectual conversations." It's like, you know, they get 23 users and 5% retention. Then, by the fifth year, that same founder is like, "Alright, let's just have people vote on who's hot." And the result? 10,000,000 users and 40% retention. It's very true. The only way to really get good is by putting yourself out there. So when you're saying, "Go start a YouTube channel," or when someone goes and has to build a Facebook app, you see that the apps that grow are the ones that tap into people's core needs. They want to know about their friends, take quizzes about themselves, and learn from goofy personality quizzes. It's the person on the sidelines who's like, "Oh, all that stuff's dumb," and what they're missing is that they don't figure out that, at the end of the day, you get rewarded for giving people what they want, not what you want people to want. The second thing is that if you really want to get good at anything, you have to be in the eye of the storm—in these new platforms or areas where there's a lot of growth and a lot of action happening. That's where you sharpen your skills. So, you know, you might not have ever made money off the Facebook games, but you got a bunch of group users and...

Noah Kagan

I made I made money

Shaan Puri

well you you might have made money

Sam Parr

I I

Noah Kagan

I think the question is: if you... I think you need to pick, are you trying to make money or trying to learn? Because I think sometimes when you're young, you're like, "Well, I wanna make money off this person." It's like, well, maybe there's a lot more long-term dividends by just trying to focus on what you can learn.

Shaan Puri

But wouldn't you say, like, I've seen this in my life, it sounds like you were in the same situation? When you're trying to make money, you end up learning because you're trying to do something hard. You learn the hard way what actually works and what doesn't.

Sam Parr

that's

Shaan Puri

Versus if you just say, "I want to learn," a lot of times people take a very sort of passive or intellectual approach to it. Now, that's different than saying, "I want to make money." So, I take this job at Intel that pays me a guaranteed six figures or whatever it is. You may not learn the most doing that path because you're not actually challenging yourself in the same way.

Noah Kagan

But I think the two things I would highlight are passion or interest, or curiosity, and then opportunity. I think I've chased opportunities to make money, which have been fleeting. They've been profitable but fleeting. I think when you're in your twenties, you should do those things. Frankly, you should just do the things that are hot and exciting if you think you want to make money. Then, in your thirties, you start reflecting more. You realize, "Wow, mortality is real. What's really important?" I think you'll come back to finding how to work on problems and things that you want created in your own world.

Shaan Puri

and for you that's what that's helping people sort of overcome their fears to start businesses is that the

Noah Kagan

or is it one

Shaan Puri

step removed from that

Noah Kagan

No, it's exactly that. It's like I want to be on the ground level helping people overcome fears, start businesses, and market those businesses. I love seeing the underdog succeed. I love seeing people like Ali Abdaal, who is a popular YouTuber, or companies like MeetFox, which got promoted on AppSumo and now have a business around it. Another popular one today is Phone Wagon, which is known for doing phone calls.

Shaan Puri

Guy Ali, he's great. I think he listens to this podcast. But he's a doctor, right? He's a doctor YouTuber, or is that... yeah.

Noah Kagan

He's so impressive. You know, people are like, "I don't have enough time." This guy's a full-time professional doctor making three high-quality YouTube videos every week. He engages with his audience and he's just very genuine. I really enjoy it.

Sam Parr

can you spell his name

Noah Kagan

A, L, I, A, B, D, A, A, L... You know, and I think it's interesting is that you have to think about on the reverse side: **How do you become someone that people want to meet?** How do you make things or do things that others want to connect with? I think we're like, "Oh, I'll just do stuff and hope... hope it happens."

Sam Parr

this guy looks amazing I just love the like I just did a quick Google

Noah Kagan

dude's dope dude dude is just dope I love this guy he's just like

Shaan Puri

I found him because he blogged, "Hey, here's some cool shit I found this week," and our podcast was in it. I was like, "Okay, who's this guy who's giving us a shout?" Then I checked out his YouTube channel and I was like, "Wait, this guy's amazing!"

Noah Kagan

Well, I think that's something that even in my newsletter every week now we have a section where we promote other people. I think the more that you can go... and this is one of the things that's like stupid obvious but no one does it: **It's like go help a bunch of other people and there's a good chance that you'll be able to connect and get a lot of things you want.** I heard a quote yesterday (and I gotta go in 4 minutes, guys) the quote that I heard yesterday that was really powerful to me was: > "Your rewards in life will be in exact proportion to your contribution."

Sam Parr

That's interesting. I don't know if it's true, though, because I feel like you can definitely make money by, like, some bullshit Facebook fleeting app, you know what I mean? But I definitely think it's the way to live by. Can I bring something up within the last 3 minutes?

Noah Kagan

hit it

Sam Parr

Four weeks ago, or maybe three weeks ago, Sean told me about a book called *Happy Body*. I was with Neville and Noah last week, or two weeks ago, and I mentioned, "Yeah, Sean told me about this book. I'm going to buy it." Neville was like, "Oh, I have it upstairs. Let me go grab it for you." He gave it to me, and then Noah was like, "Wait, what's this book?" I think he ended up buying it too. I've been doing those exercises in that book, and I feel great! Have you guys been doing that? It's basically... I literally just got the book yesterday, so I have no idea what you're talking about. My God! I'm realizing...

Noah Kagan

is I on this podcast said I had scoliosis and I

Sam Parr

I had like 30 or 40 people reach out to me saying they also have scoliosis. So then I started doing this book to help fix it. It's been awesome! My back feels so much better. Do you get... does your back feel better, Sean?

Shaan Puri

I never had back pain, so I wasn't doing it for that. I just read the philosophy and I was like, "Oh, I vibe with this. This makes sense to me." I don't feel like I'm being sold to; I think this seems like one of those fundamental truths about the way your body works and how you should sort of tune it. So, I started to like it, but I haven't been doing all of those exercises. Actually, I've been swimming a bunch, but I haven't been doing those exercises in there. But yeah, if your back hurts, give it a shot. You know, back pain is one of those quality of life ruiners if you have it. So, you just gotta try everything if you have back pain.

Sam Parr

Well, Noah was talking about getting older and trying to feel younger. Before this podcast, he took his shirt off and showed me his body.

Noah Kagan

that's what we do that's what real friends do

Sam Parr

But golly, this thing has totally made a difference. We aren't getting... I'm not getting paid to say this, but that stuff is awesome!

Shaan Puri

Alright, so Noah, let's ask you then: what has been the best decision, purchase, or change that has lifted your quality of life on a day-to-day basis? Think about it for a minute; it can be something that comes to mind from recent memory.

Noah Kagan

Yeah, just change my life. I think there's probably about... I'll say three, and then I gotta jump off. **Number 1:** Buying my Tesla. I think it's not about the Tesla itself, but rather about how we are conditioned to believe that materialism is evil. I think it's more about finding ways to use money to make our lives better. So, I think that's been really powerful for me—to really enjoy something versus getting the cheaper option. For example, I like Miatas, and I have a Miata in the backyard, but it's nice to have something amazing. I wonder what else in my life I can have that would be amazing, and that I can also be amazing. I think there's something to say about what your stuff says about you. **The second thing** I would think about is journaling. I've been using the Bear app. I think one of you guys asked for three business opportunities; one of them is being a technology adviser. There's so much new tech, new cameras, new everything. I think you can make a lot of money coaching people on TV.

Sam Parr

bear bear app

Noah Kagan

Bear.app or Bear app notes—I really enjoy it. I literally journal five days a week, and it's been really helpful to understand myself better and learn about my interests, motivations, fears, and all this stuff. Those two have definitely been powerful. I'm trying to think of the third thing that's really changed my life, and I think the third thing for me has been observing where I'm living and how much my space affects my energy. I've been renting Airbnbs, and I'm going to be moving because, you know, there's something about your space and how much it can impact you professionally and personally. Guys, I gotta go. I love you all! Cool apps: yl.com.

Sam Parr

Thank you, Sean. Let's stay on, but Noah, let's come back again and actually talk about some business stuff because this is awesome. I also want to do the other thing. Thank you, and have a good day.

Noah Kagan

alright guys you too see you thanks sean bye

Sam Parr

you wanna talk about anything noah said sean

Shaan Puri

You know, a lot of it is really relevant to me because I think the things he's talking about—like the thing he spent, I don't know, 15 years doing now—is building up this audience. This involves putting out great content that's going to help people and distills down his wisdom. Like, okay, if I learn something, the act of me trying to teach it to somebody else will help me learn it better. I think that's the vibe I get from him. That's what I want to do; that's what I find most enjoyable in my life anyway. So, personally, I thought that stuff was interesting. If you're not trying to be a content creator, I don't know how useful that part will be for people. But honestly, these are pretty universal tactics to get things done and get things out there—like being an action person. So yeah, I like his message around being an action person. I wish we'd gone into ideas because I think he is kind of an idea starter, like he said. Maybe what we do is have him come on, and we can focus just on ideas. We could even release this as a double episode, you know, sort of ideas plus interview—a two-hour sort of session.

Sam Parr

Well, he's coming. He's moving to San Francisco for a month, I think next week. Nice! He's staying at Andrew Chen's house, and we definitely could do that. One thing here, I'll actually bring up something that he mentioned that is not related to any of this self-help stuff, which I enjoyed... well, kind of. He talked about his space and buying a nice car. So, I think I just spent three weeks living in Austin. I think I'm going to give up my place in San Francisco. I'm going to spend four to eight weeks in different cities and see what happens. So, I'm going to buy a car. I don't know what type of car I should buy, but I'm going to buy a nice car and I'm going to drive all over the country.

Shaan Puri

yeah that's great

Sam Parr

And so, yeah, to the listeners, it's more important. I want to ask your opinion on that. But also, to the listeners, if you want to rent my apartment, I'll give it to you for 6 months. It's $4,000 a month. I live in Glen Park; it's a lovely neighborhood, and it's furnished. I have a home gym—a really nice one. So, message me on Twitter if you want to rent it. Otherwise, I'm going to give it up, and I don't want to, but...

Shaan Puri

Dude, you should charge a premium. This is rent. Sleep in Sampar's bed for $8,000 a month. Actually, you know, get that good, good juice.

Sam Parr

There is no pre... maybe I should... I just blew my... yeah, I pay $4,000 a month.

Shaan Puri

to accept 4 guys he's willing to accept 4

Sam Parr

I just... No, I wasn't gonna make money on it. I just wanted to cover the expenses. Austin is amazing! More people should... I don't know, sometimes I'm like, "It's way better there."

Shaan Puri

So, a couple of years ago, I made a decision to do something similar. I was sitting in San Francisco and I thought, "Why am I just here all the time? Life is so big; the world is so big." So, I told my girlfriend at the time—now my wife—and I said, "Let's go live in South America for the next 6 weeks. I'll just work from there. Let's pick a cool city that we are not going to live in long term. I don't want to move, but I want to go live there." Then I realized, "Wait a minute, I can live there without moving." The way that San Francisco works is like an arbitrage. You can Airbnb your house or your apartment and you could make more money. You could literally live for free somewhere else in the world... you know, get a free vacation. So that's what I did. We went for 5 or 6 weeks and lived in Buenos Aires, Argentina. We just lived there like locals, not like tourists. Not exactly sure what year it was...

Sam Parr

what year was this

Shaan Puri

It was an expat experience, but it wasn't a vacation. It wasn't like going to sightsee, taking a bunch of photos, and leaving after 5 days. It was more like, "Okay, we're going to live here. What's the coffee shop we should go to? How do we get groceries?" That was just a way better experience. I thought, "I'm going to do this every year." But then one year, it was like, "Oh, we're getting married," and then I had a kid. Now, I don't know when I'm going to do it again.

Sam Parr

so wait but you did do it

Shaan Puri

I did do it for one year, and I plan to do it again this year. Now that my child is a little bit older, I think we can go do it now because she's almost a year old. So, I'll do it again.

Sam Parr

So, my logic is I'm only going to go to places I can drive to for two reasons: 1. **Corona** 2. My dog, who I consider part of my family. He's old, and I would not want to leave him behind. I don't know if you can bring a dog; you could probably bring a dog to some European countries, but in a lot of places, they have like a three-week quarantine thing. I don't know.

Shaan Puri

but you could get to canada you could get to mexico that's cool

Sam Parr

well so I would move to mexico city in a heartbeat have you been there

Shaan Puri

I've never been but everybody who I know says the same thing it's like amazing

Sam Parr

It's amazing. I remember I was there when Trump was just getting elected, and he was talking about the wall. I was in a hipster neighborhood, and I asked my barber, "What do you think about this Trump guy talking about this wall?" He goes, "I don't give a fuck about what he says. Yeah, build the wall! That will keep you guys from coming in. This is amazing here. We do not try to go to America." I was like, "Oh man, you've just broken all these stupid stereotypes in my head. Thank you." So yeah, they're going to need a wall to keep me out of Mexico City because that place is lovely. I would totally want to live there. The Mexicans are awesome people; I love the neighborhoods. But, Corona... I'm nervous about Corona at the moment.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, Corona. And before this, it was... what's it called? Zika. People didn't really care about it, but Zika's scary as shit, especially if you're like, "We were gonna have a kid." We knew that, and Zika, like, basically you can become a carrier for a year or so and pass it to your baby. So that was like a scary thing. That's what killed it for one year. And now, Corona... it's like, I don't know when I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna do it. I think I'm gonna do Canada because I trust the Canadians around Corona.

Sam Parr

where vancouver

Shaan Puri

vancouver or somewhere remote who knows

Sam Parr

Because, like, why would you do remote Canada when it's like the same as Montana, isn't it?

Shaan Puri

I also don't... I would go to Montana. Man, Montana's cool too. But you know, I don't mind that it's a change of pace.

Sam Parr

What car should I buy? Should I do this in an F-150 truck? Should I do this in a Subaru that I like and put off-road tires on? What should I buy? I thought about a Tesla, but that doesn't come out until 2021, and I want to leave in August.

Shaan Puri

You could do it as a Tesla SUV, or you could do the F-150. I think that would be hilarious, although that's kind of cramped and not the most ideal. Why not?

Sam Parr

Do the F-150s have 4 doors? You can get a 4-door F-150, but a Cybertruck or a Tesla would be horrible for a 3,000-mile trip, wouldn't it?

Shaan Puri

why

Sam Parr

Because, like, when do you have to pull over every 300 miles for an hour?

Shaan Puri

The superchargers are pretty fast. I think the new ones go like 600 miles or something crazy.

Sam Parr

it's interesting maybe I would do that

Shaan Puri

yeah do it definitely do it in something that is not your usual

Sam Parr

Well, that's what Noah said that inspired me. I was like, "I'm not gonna penny-pinch. I'm gonna buy the nice stuff that I want." Yeah, you're just...

Shaan Puri

Waiting for... you're just waiting for somebody to be like, "You know what's cool? Buying cool shit." It's like... because.

Sam Parr

I'm always

Shaan Puri

that's right that resonated with me too

Sam Parr

I'm always doing like penny pitching and stuff, so I need to step that up. Do you want to go over anything else?

Shaan Puri

I have a bunch of ideas that I added to the thing, but I feel like we should just do an episode about it. Like a full episode about those ideas. So, I think we should keep this one kind of short. And then, yeah, I have a bunch, but it would be like an hour.

Sam Parr

Okay, I have a bunch too. They range from interactive email to a variety of ideas around privacy stuff that fascinate me a ton. And then there's the Corona stuff. Someone's gotta create the organic label, but for like, "Is your restaurant Corona clean?"

Shaan Puri

Oh yeah, yeah. It's like the health score, but this time it's specifically branded around **corona hygiene**.

Sam Parr

so that's what I'm gonna bring up what are you gonna bring up

Shaan Puri

Okay, I'm just going to read you some of my quick notes that I had here. One is called "Scott Galloway Being Super Wrong." Another one is...

Sam Parr

I know exactly where you're going with that and I'm very interested

Shaan Puri

Another one is scams that I found interesting. I have four examples of scams that I found intriguing. The first one is "WikiLeaks for creeps" because Chris D'Elia turned out to be a creep. Then, there's how the 37 Signals guys are marketing their new thing, **Hey.com**. I think it's pretty interesting how they're going about that. I also have a bunch of startup ideas. One is around baseball cards, and we have a lot of ideas to come. So, we have a lot to look forward to!

Sam Parr

Great! I am interested in all those, particularly the Scott Galloway one and the Hey.com thing, which I think is actually going to be a huge business.

Shaan Puri

I just downloaded it. Have you used it? No? Alright, I'll tell you. If you don't like Superhuman, you may not like this either, but I just don't...

Sam Parr

thumbs up or thumbs down

Shaan Puri

I'm about 10 minutes into the onboarding, but I'm also giving it a thumbs down so far. However, I really like those guys, so I'm thinking, "Just let me try it."

Sam Parr

I I

Shaan Puri

wouldn't say I've given it a fair shake yet but the onboarding so far I'm not sold

Sam Parr

I'm in the same boat but I understand why many people will like it

Shaan Puri

right okay we should we should jet here