I Lost Everything Twice… Then Made $26M In 18 Months

Alex Hormozi

I made $100,000 in cash in 21 days. The first question she asked is, "Is this legal?" That I wake up one morning and all the cash in the bank account's gone, and I was like, "What the f***? I just got all my money stolen." And I was like, "I wouldn't stay with me if I were you. I am a sinking ship right now."

Shaan Puri

so from that brink of failure to what was it at the end of the year

Alex Hormozi

So I spent 48 hours, took a ton of Adderall, and wrote the best sales letter of my life. Then the full next calendar year we did $26,000,000 and $16,000,000 in EBITDA. Dude, that's insane!

Shaan Puri

so why do a saas deal or why do the school deal

Alex Hormozi

in my opinion it was the best deal I've ever done how much cash did you put up upfront like almost done

Shaan Puri

What's a company you would want to buy right now, Sam? I don't know if you've heard this story about your wife, Leila, and...

Alex Hormozi

yeah

Shaan Puri

being on the brink of failure

Alex Hormozi

yeah waiting in the swamp of failure

Shaan Puri

yeah could you take us back there what what was going on

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, so Leila and I started dating in April of 2016. I immediately was like, "Hey, I've got this idea for this thing called Gym Launch. I want to fly out to gyms and do turnarounds because I can fill my gyms up faster than I can build them up."

Shaan Puri

by the way context is at the time you owned a couple of gyms yeah

Alex Hormozi

I had 5 I had 5 gyms when I met her

Shaan Puri

and the bank balance looked like what at the time

Alex Hormozi

I was making like **$20 a month**. I know that. I don't remember what my savings were, but I was making **$20 a month** in cash flow. And you're like, "Wait, five gyms?" It's like, yeah, some of them were good, and some of them were tied to corporate locations. They were a little smaller. Anyways, I was like **25 or 26**, so I was hood rich, you know? As far as I'm concerned, I could buy whatever I wanted. I could live where I wanted. I could go out to eat, whatever. So I started the turnaround business, and I made **$100,000 in cash in 21 days**. I was like, "Holy shit! This is awesome!" I came back, and she picked me up from the airport. I had this big stack of contracts, and I was like, "Hey, we can go on that date." I hadn't taken her on a date in **three weeks**, and we'd seen each other every day. So it had been like **21 days** of hanging out and not one date. You promised you'd take me on a date after you did this launch. I was like, "Okay, okay." I was like, "How do we process these?" You processed the contracts in **45 minutes**. She saw it was **$100**, and she was like, "Holy shit!" The first question she asked was, "Is this legal?" I was like, "Yeah, it's legal." And she was like, "Alright, I'm in." So she decided to join me. We went out to the next launch together, a few more launches. Then one of the launch guys that I did really well with—the one that I came back with **$100,000** for—was like, "Hey, let's partner. Instead of you just doing these gyms and then walking away, let's just open new gyms. I'm a really good operator. I'll just open them behind you and run it. If you open up one or two gyms a month, then you own **24 gyms** instead of just doing the service." And me being me, it was like, of course, money on the table. Why would I not do that? The fact that he had been indicted for fraud—like, it was a misunderstanding, whatever. He was like, "Hey, you know, you should sign all the leases for these new locations because I had a little run-in. No big deal. You should do it." So I personally guaranteed the lease and put all the capital up because, you know, I'm **25** and don't know what I'm doing. And of course, we don't have the story because I launched that crushed launch at **376** new members, which were like a CrossFit/microgym. It's massive to open up with.

Sam Parr

then I wake

Alex Hormozi

up one morning and all the cash in the bank account's gone and I was like what the fuck and I you know hit him up and I was like dude what's going on he's like oh that was my half and I was like what do you mean your half I was like you just call the money up he's like well I know you've been skimming and I was like what I was like I'm here what I'm here what so I came to him with all the bank accounts like every transaction highlighted and I was like hey let's go through this like I just wanna make sure we're good and he threw it off the table he's out he see that shit and I was like oh you okay got I now understand what happened like okay so I just got all my money stolen and right at when that had happened I had decided to go all in on that business so I sold my gyms and I put all that cash in that account so the cash that I used to open the gym and the subsequent cash that came all of that was pooled into one place but that was what I had sold all my gyms for and so when he emptied that I had basically the 5 years I had built my gyms I had nothing and so that sucked and so leila was like you know dust it off forget the whole like build and whatever like let's just go back to the turnaround model like you made money doing that like let's do that I was like alright we'll do that and so the next launch that's supposed to happen is in california there's a guy who hits me up randomly on instagram says hey do you have work me I've got 2 I've got a kid on the way and I've got a 1 year old I need the money and it just so happened he lived 10 minutes away from the one gym that we were going to launch in the world and so I was like dude do this launch for me so he does a 100 he does a 100 grand in sales in 28 days and all of a sudden though as I'm like normally I know my deposits always hit on tuesdays over the weekends and so tuesday hits and I'm like there's no deposit I'm like we're processing the contracts like what's going on then I call up mindbody which is the you know heartland was the processor they integrated with at the time and they put you know they give me the runaround and they're like oh it's a standard annual review and I was like okay and no no wednesday no thursday no friday and a saturday then it's the weekend again and then tuesday comes back and no no deposit and I was like dude what the fuck so they said no you're still in the annual review so I did it one more week and now it's christmas eve and I had about $23 left after all the money was it was basically my checking was what was left from all that other stuff and so they got on the phone I said I'm not getting off it's christmas eve I need to pay my guys like what the hell and they said we're gonna hold on to this for 6 months because it's a regular activity because I was processing these turnaround gyms through my brick and mortar location I didn't know how processing works I was like you know flying into calgary canada doing a turnaround running it through huntington beach california for an in person transaction like I didn't know how it worked and so they're like this is weird we're gonna hold on to the funds and so I owed $22,000 in commissions for sales that I hadn't gotten paid for for this guy who had you know the kids and the babies or whatever and so I didn't wanna like give myself the idea that I could not pay him and so I sent him the money and so I had a $1,000 left it's christmas we're at leila's family's house I'm stressed the fuck out because I just lost all my money in the last 2 like I got the money stolen and then the my my hail mary to save the day was the $100 new launch I didn't get paid for that I ended up just having it empty though a small $20 that I had and had a $1,000 left she told 6 of her friends to quit their jobs to start that month on the 26th december because that's going into new year so I could do I was like let's do 6 gyms because that's logical go from 1 to 6 immediately since we're gonna go all in and so after I found out that I didn't have any money and I had a $1,000 left and the ads were supposed to launch on the 26th and I was gonna be spending 33100 a day in advertising hotels rental car per dms for the 6 sales guys that were her friends and I had $1,000 in total and so I you know we're sitting at like I think her parents are downstairs we're in like the the spare bedroom where like the grandkids are so there's like this little mini furniture everywhere they like I'm sitting in a tiny chair and I was like hey this could go horribly wrong and if you I said I I wouldn't stay with me if I were you I am a sinking ship right now and so in that moment she grabbed my chin and she was like I would sleep with you under for bridge if it came to that and so I was like alright and honestly I just kinda felt relief at the time I kinda I can appreciate it more later but you know she quit her job to join me doing these turnarounds and all she got to see besides the one that she did in the beginning was me just getting kicked in the nuts for like 8 straight months and so then the next day I said okay well I still had a $100,000 limit on my credit card from all my 5 gyms like amex hadn't updated the fact that I was broke and so I put 33100 a day on the credit card mind you with no way to process money and so I'm spending 3333100 a day of money I don't have with no way to process new money and so I I got like porn casino and like gambling processing that had like 10% reserves and like 6% 7% processing fees they were taking like 17% off the top but I needed the cash and so I got one turned on with a 50 k limit and I needed I mean I had a 100 k in cost I need it was we were gonna do 2 I needed 200 grand and there's like well if you do well you know you get 50 and I got it only turned on 3 days before the end of january so this whole time I'm fronting 33100 a day and we're collecting these contracts with credit cards and I'm not processing anything and people are calling me like hey I haven't seen the money come out hey like what's going on are you guys gonna run the run the card we're like yeah yeah we're getting to it and and so 3 days before the end of january the first 50 k processor hits and so I've run that in a day you know excited so much so much backlog but he's like the good news is it's per month so on the 1st february you can run another 50 so I ran 50.50 and that covered my 100 that went out to 33100 a day and then I got 2 more processors turned on at 50.50 and then and then I was able to to get out of it there's also another crash that happens after that where I lost it all again 3 months later but that was because all of the launches that we were doing I had a new hole in my model which is that I was selling and other people were delivering and then they would tell the customers to refund and then sign up with them for half the price after we'd leave so we'd sell like 5 you know we'd sell a $500 challenge or whatever and then we'd put a 100 people in the location and they would just tell them all like hey refund with them sign up with me for $200 and we'd already already fronted the cost for the hotel the ad spend the commissions the sales guy like all that jazz and so that's when I lost everything again and that was that was probably the hardest of all of them because this was the only model I knew and so the more I sold the more refund risk I exposed myself to and so it was just like I had to sell more to cover the 1st month's refunds and then the next month was bigger and then I had to sell more and more to cover that month's refund and so then I had to make a switch in 30 days to come with a $150 in profit in profit in 30 days and I was like I don't know what I'm gonna

Shaan Puri

Do the first two were out of your control. You know, a business partner screws you, the payment process drains you. Off this one, your model was broken.

Alex Hormozi

yeah we

Shaan Puri

Were like, "Oh shit," because Sam, I don't know if you know how this business worked. It was basically like, my understanding is you'd go turn around the gym, which means you'd sell a bunch of memberships. The deal was like, I keep the upfront cash and then you keep the members. So they were just like, he took all the upfront. He made $100 in like, whatever, a month or something. A few of them were like, "Well, you know what? Why don't I just cut them out and do the deal directly with my customers who I'm going to serve going forward?" And so that one was your fault, in your control, basically your model. But then you fixed the model, right? And it worked.

Alex Hormozi

Well, sort of. So, what ended up happening is I told Leila, "Hey," because she still had her fitness clients. She was a personal trainer and had a book of business. She converted like half of them into online training, since online training was a thing. So, she was making like $4 a month. One day, we're sitting at the kitchen table, and I asked her, "Hey, how much do you make on that?" She was defensive and replied, "Hey, this pays for our food." I said, "No, no, no, I'm not saying it's a bad thing." Then she said, "I don't know, like $4 a month. Why?" I asked, "How many hours a week does it take you?" She said, "I don't know, 4 hours." I replied, "That's not a bad business." I said, "Well, I already know how to sell fitness. Why don't we cut the gym owner out and just sell straight to the consumer?" So, I spent 48 hours, took a ton of Adderall, and wrote the best sales letter of my life. I got ads live in 48 hours to a sales letter, and we started doing $500 a day—$500 to $1,000 a day.

Shaan Puri

this is like a a women's weight loss product

Alex Hormozi

it was called queen transformation and so it it told leila sign me up

Shaan Puri

yeah let's go

Alex Hormozi

So, she lost 100 pounds and then became a fitness competitor. She had a great before-and-after, a great transformation story. I was thinking as though I... yeah, Leila, as though I were her. So I'm like, "My thighs were chafing together and I couldn't go outside." Like, it was... it was...

Sam Parr

just me right my thighs are shaking

Alex Hormozi

yeah so this is working a 1,000 pound weight that now

Sam Parr

I need to sign up for this clean transformation. Alright, guys, really quick. Back when I was running The Hustle, we had this premium newsletter called **Trends**. The way it worked was we hired a ton of analysts and created this sort of playbook for researching different companies, ideas, and emerging trends to help you make money and build businesses. Well, HubSpot did something kind of cool. They took this playbook that we developed and gave to our analysts, and they turned it into an actionable guide and a resource that anyone can download. It breaks down all the different methods that we use for spotting upcoming trends and identifying different companies that are going to explode and grow really quickly. It's pretty awesome that they took this internal document, which we use for teaching our analysts how to do this, and turned it into a tool that they are giving away for free. Anyone can download it! So, if you want to stay ahead of the game and find cool business ideas or different niches that most people have no idea exist, this is the ultimate guide. If you want to check it out, you can see the link down below in the description. Now, back to the show.

Alex Hormozi

So, we did the $1,000 today, and I saw I got 8 sales guys now. I was like, "Wait, if I got 8 guys, I can do $8 a day with covering costs. I could make $1.50 on this; like, this could work." I called up the gyms that are supposed to launch next month and I said, "Hey, we're not flying out." They were like, "What the hell? What about...?" Then one guy's like, "Dude, I need this." I turned around to one of my buddies' gyms because the other model didn't work. Only like 1 out of 5 gyms had to deal with me, so it wasn't like they all did it. Some of them were fine, but my profit was like 20%, you know what I mean? I called the first guy up, and he said he needed this. He mentioned he was poor, so I just said the highest number I could think of at the time, which was $6,000. I was like, "Fine, I'm not flying out there to save your ass if you can't close, but I'll show you how I did it for $6,000." He was like, "6 grand?" and he said, "Done." I remember just looking at the phone being like, "Oh." I mean, I was selling $500, $300, $400 at a time, like $6,000. I was like, "What the fuck just happened?" I still had 7 more calls that day, so I called the next guy. Same conversation: "How much?" I was like, "8 grand." He was like, "Done." Next call, same thing: "How much?" "10 grand." By the end of the day, I did $60,000 in cash collected, and I was like, "Holy shit."

Shaan Puri

now your now your thighs are really shaping

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, so I called Leila after a full day of sales. I was like, "I think we're still in the gym business." And she was like, "What? You just sold me on this new direction. We're going to be the online queen of transformation!" I said, "No, I think we were just doing it wrong. I think we just need to show them how we fill gyms rather than flying out and filling it for them. Let them take the risk on the ad spend. They don't have to do a hotel; they don't have to hire a salesman. They can just do it themselves if I teach them how to do it." So we did that. I called 30+ gyms and turned around, saying, "Hey, remember that thing I did? I'm going to show you how I did it." A lot of them saw me pull a $100 out, and one out of five was like, "I'm going to super screw this guy." But four out of five were probably thinking, "This guy made more out of my gym than I did." When I called them back, almost all of them said yes. I did about $240 in sales in the next 30 days, and that was almost all profit. I was able to pay off all the refunds that were going to be due from all the other gyms. So I paid the $1.50 down, and I was in the clear. That was what became Gym Launch.

Sam Parr

dude that's insane have you

Shaan Puri

ever felt richer than that first relief of being like out of the mess no I say

Alex Hormozi

In my book, in the offers book, the last chapters discuss the first $100,000. When we had our first $100,000, which was like 4 to 6 weeks after that, I showed it to Layla on the phone. I was like, "We did it!" and she was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "Look!" But it wasn't in the business account because I had that earmarked for operating expenses and other stuff. This was in the personal account, and I said, "We can screw up for like 3 years and we're going to be fine. We could just take off for 3 years and be fine." To this day, that is 100% the richest I've ever felt. I think it's because of the relative change in wealth. I've thought about it because if you go from $1,000 to $100,000, it's a 100x increase in wealth in a month.

Shaan Puri

By the way, the end of that story is that within the first 12 months, there's some ridiculous benchmark that you guys hit, right? So, from that brink of failure to... what was it at the end of the year?

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, so we did the... So, December 26th of 2016, the processor shuts me down and I make the big bet. Leila says, "I'll go with you under a bridge." It's $33,100 a day. It takes 4 or 5 months for me to realize the new model, where I fly out to gyms, has this big refund problem. So now we're into May of 2017. I flip... I flip during that kind of like April-May-ish the model, and we start doing the licensing model. It goes like $400, $700, $1,000,000, $1,215, like into the end of the year. So we ended up with like $6,800,000 top line, and I think we did $3,000,000 in profit. Then the full next calendar year, we did $26,000,000 and $16,000,000 in EBITDA.

Sam Parr

that's insane

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, it was wild. It was just as wild for me... For anyone who's listening, I actually think it took me like 3 years to acclimate to the wealth that we were making. It was probably like end of 2019, 2020 when I started to realize how much money we were making. I didn't adjust my living... well, we did buy a house.

Shaan Puri

It's like three years later. One day, you just woke up and you were like, "Holy shit, I feel good! Wait a minute, what is this?"

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, well, it's like because we took out $42,000,000 in distributions prior to selling it. That's why the sale was not... I mean, we got a ton of notoriety from the sale, but in terms of material change in living, it wasn't a massive step up.

Shaan Puri

sam have you actually read his offers book

Sam Parr

The purple one? I read the purple one. Hey, no, I read it. Yeah, I've read it. No, it was "Leads," I thought.

Shaan Puri

bro you can't have a lead one too purple one and then say bro I read sorry

Sam Parr

Leads? Well, they're all like the same cover, just... but they're like the same thing. No, I read the... oh, well, they're like the same color.

Alex Hormozi

yeah the lighting makes it look like they're worth the money

Sam Parr

I read the leads one

Shaan Puri

Alright, so the compliment is: "Alex, you have a very useful thing on offers." I read a bit of the book—about the first 20%—and I was like, "Sweet, got it! Ready to act. Don't need the rest of this book right now." I knew exactly what I needed to do. It really wasn't something super specific in the book; it was just implanting the idea. You sparked an idea in my head: *How do you make somebody's offer so good that they would be stupid to turn you down?* That stuck with me. It was like that one line stuck with me, and then immediately I went into this one business that we had started. I thought, "What this business needs is a killer offer." We decided we were going to do nothing until we crafted a killer offer. We crafted a killer offer in the first year of this business, which we haven't announced on the podcast. It'll probably do $4,000,000 in revenue with 50% margins. It's a really great business, and it needed a killer offer. I would not have had that idea had I not heard you kind of plant that seed of why that matters. Can you give us the couple-minute version for anybody else that's listening? Because if it was that useful for me, I know it's going to be useful for a few hundred thousand other people that are going to listen to this.

Alex Hormozi

Also, I'll say, because of what you said, I wrote a summary and workbook of offers so that they can finish it in one sitting.

Sam Parr

does it come with crayons

Shaan Puri

my my kinda guy yeah exactly

Alex Hormozi

yeah yeah crayons are upsell so fundamentally you know you think about like are there supply demand are there supply constrained businesses or demand constrained businesses and I like going into demand constrained businesses because that's what I'm good at so the core if there is one framework in the book that it relates to it's the value equation which is that you have to understand how to create value so that you can charge as much as possible right and obviously also convert as many people as humanly possible and so there's 4 elements to that 1 is the dream outcome the the second is the perceived likely of achievement and then below that so it's a fraction so dream outcome times perceived likely of achievement below that you have time delay and then effort and sacrifice and so the dream outcome is what I would say separates whether someone's even interested in your category of offer or not so it's you know men in general probably wanna make more money women in general in general usually wanna look better because both of those are more associated with status so okay why is it that b to b offers tend to be more expensive than b to c offers because it's more closely tied to roi great so that's the category 1 but within let's say weight loss given the example we're talking about if you're b to c how is it that you can have a $5 pdf and a $50,000 liposuction thing but they both fundamentally solve the same problem which is that they don't like the way their stomach looks right what's the other three variables and so the next is perceived likelihood of achievement so taking the liposuction example if you're a surgeon or you're a girl and you're you're thinking about getting liposuction there's one surgeon that's just fresh out of medical school hasn't done a surgery yet and there's another physician who's got 10,000 you know 5 stars or surgeries under his belt who do you go to the guy with 10,000 why and and the crazy thing is is that it's the same procedure but the perceived likelihood of achievement that you're gonna get what you want is significantly higher and so you pay for that premium because the the equal opposite of this is risk right and so how do we decrease risk so you have this dream outcome and you want it to be absolutely certain that you're going to achieve it and so it's the category and then there's things you do in the offer like that's where guarantees come into place how can I further decrease the risk associated with that and then we have the bottom side of the equation which is time delay so how how far between when they buy and when they get and so to use the the example of personal training versus the liposuction personal training you gotta arm wrestle somebody for an hour to get them to buy a $2,000 package of of personal training and the reason for that is because they might get their 6 pack you know 12 to 18 months later whereas if you do liposuction you know you're gonna go to sleep and then you're gonna wake up and you're gonna be significantly thinner so the time delay is so much shorter and so because of that it increases the value overall and then finally you have effort and sacrifice which effort are things that you have to begin doing that you don't wanna do as a result of a purchase so in the personal training example you gotta wake up early you gotta be sore that's the effort side you have to stop it you know well sacrifices the things you have to stop doing that you wanna keep doing so it's like you gotta stop taco tuesday you gotta stop sleeping because you gotta do it in the morning so it's both sides of the same coin effort and sacrifice and when you itemize all the things that a customer has to do as a result of a purchase what are all the things that they what are the things that increase their risk what are the things that make it take longer what are the things that make them start doing things they hate and what are the things that we have them stop doing that they love and then you create solutions for each of those categories then you create an incredibly valuable offer and so from the weight loss perspective many people think oh I'm gonna help them lose weight but it's like well they're gonna have to go grocery shopping differently they're gonna have to learn how to prep food and so it's really getting granular about all the little steps that has to occur in order for someone to get a result and so looking at what happens immediately before and immediately post purchase all the little steps and then trying to deconstruct each of those steps for them and then including those things in the offer also creates a much more valuable a offer and b a higher converting offer and this is where you get these massive stepwise increases in terms of company value because all of a sudden we can double the price or triple the price for offer and close at a higher percentage and so that's when these crazy kinda like lollapalooza effects occur in the business where they go from 2,000,000 to 10 in a year changing nothing but what the core offer of what they said was and then we do these little enhancers that I'll add on which is like you've got scarcity which is limiting number of units you've got urgency which is limit number of time you have guarantees which is things that we do to reverse risk if there's 4 types of guarantees you can do unconditional conditional 0 guarantee and then performance right so performance what I call an implied guarantee like if you know if you don't make money I don't make money anti guarantees you lean into the fact that you don't have a guarantee for this type of person needs a guarantee this isn't for you conditional is like I'll guarantee it if you do x y and z and then unconditionals it's unconditional like I'll I'll give you money back if you ask for it then you have bonuses which are things that drive action in the short term buying decisions and so a lot of those things that you can make an irresistible offer or a grand slam offer from the book is by looking at each of those problems and creating kind of a bonus stack that solves each of them and so from a selling perspective hand to hand the salesman doesn't need to say all 7 of the things that you have and so the idea is that you make the ask on the initial offer if they say no you figure out what the constraint is and then you plug that bonus in and then maybe you need to put 3 bonuses in in order to get them over the edge this also allows the sales team to stop doing discounts in order to close people we just add value rather than taking away price and then post purchase in order to make sure that ops is all the same you then give them a surprise and delay with the remaining 4 you say by the way since you did buy I wanna give you these other things and so if you get the fast buyer that doesn't need the bonuses you just give them the bonuses and they love you and if you got to somebody who needs all 7 then you give them the 7 bonuses on the sales calls that's kind of how you can just get increased close rates without giving away discounts

Shaan Puri

goddamn yeah high highly useful

Sam Parr

I feel pumped up brother I need to go read I need to go read the blue and the purple one

Alex Hormozi

This is the stuff that I enjoy, and that's the stuff that we do to really grow the business in the portfolio. We're in it, we're rescripting the sales, we're changing the process overall. Like, we bought a chain of 32 teeth whitening studios.

Sam Parr

is there anyone at acquisition.com who's better than you at this or are you still the best

Alex Hormozi

When it comes to offer reimagining, mixed with the sales process, that's probably my strongest skill. It's probably the thing I am best at, and it drives so much profit in a business since pricing is the strongest lever on profit.

Shaan Puri

There's a great example of the offer, by the way. I've been knee-deep in a... I do these two-week learning sprints where I just pick whatever topic I'm most interested in and I just go *ham* on it. Like, every minute that I'm not on this podcast or in a required meeting, I'm just diving into one topic. In this case, I've been studying old-school marketers. There's a great story, I think it's Ogilvy, who when he launched his agency, asked himself, "How do I get people to do this?" He basically made a killer offer. He said, "Take your top-performing ad that you've spent years iterating on, and I guarantee that I will beat it in an A/B test, head-to-head, within a month. I will fund my portion of the A/B test. So, I'll make the ad, and I guarantee you that I'll beat it. I will fund the ad cost if I don't beat it." Or even, I think, not if I don't beat it; I will fund the ad cost in order to win your business. What he said was that the response rate on this ad was through the roof. The best part was that of the 100% of people that responded, they didn't even end up having to do it because the top 20%, the most expensive clients, were like, "Okay, cool, forget the A/B test and the mechanics and the contract for that. The fact that you're willing to do that, we looked into your track record, we are big believers in this, and we'd like to just move forward and retain you." He noted that their agency would never be that confident to pull that off, so they were willing to work with him. It was incredible because he used this killer offer to fill up the funnel, and then he just picked the top 20% of clients in that funnel. That kickstarted Ogilvy, which became one of the big ad agencies.

Alex Hormozi

That's in the game. Like, we bought that teeth whitening chain, and so I sat down with our director of sales and we rescripted the sales process. We basically reimagined how the offers were going to happen, and we 5x'd LTV [Lifetime Value] per sale. So I was like, "Okay, here's the plan, just roll it out." Fundamentally, it's like... a lot of times people think there's a lot more that it takes to grow their company, but sometimes just a handful of levers can make a huge difference.

Sam Parr

Does every business and product offering have a killer offer inside of them?

Alex Hormozi

I do think so. I think that sometimes, you have to operationalize the big part with the offer. If you're Ogilvy, it's like, "Okay, how can I write all these split tests?" If I'm going to have all these bonuses that I have to add in to make the thing more valuable, I have to operationalize that part. So yes, I do think so. It's just like, usually, you might sometimes have to put terms around that. For example, if I was an accounting firm—something boring—it's like, "I can guarantee that I will get you more than you pay me by just auditing your back taxes and saving that money today." But you have to provide all the back taxes, and then I have to have a separate team that I now have to create just for our front-end conversion to shrink time to value using that little nugget. The big thing with most of the businesses I try to shrink time to value really aggressively. Even that publishing business, it takes a very long time for our customer to get a result. So we looked at it and asked, "Can we peel some element of what we do and drop it into the beginning?" It turns out we could do something in like 7 days that gave people a very positive outcome really quickly. Then they get bought in emotionally, knowing what you're doing, and to further on the...

Alex Hormozi

I think that probably a major difference between the Tiny/Wilkinson model and how we do it is that we are operators. So the investment strategy has slowly, you know, continued to move over time, but it's been fewer, bigger deals that we have larger percentages of, that we do more for. It's just like... basically, the more we work on the business, the more money we make. And so if we're going to work on it, then it might as well be big.

Shaan Puri

Dude, you did that school deal, right? We had Sam on the pod. Interesting guy.

Sam Parr

sam ovens we're talking about school dot com is it school

Shaan Puri

dot com

Sam Parr

He is one of the oddest people you'll ever have a conversation with, but odd in the best possible way. So one time, I was with him, my wife, and Sam Ovens. We were sitting at a party or something, and he and my wife get along great because my wife and I both love quirky people. He's extremely quirky. It gets to a lull in the conversation where there's probably a 5-second silence as we're thinking about what we're going to say next. He looks at my wife and says, "I delivered my baby."

Shaan Puri

I'm not

Sam Parr

And we both look at each other, and I'm like, "What?" He goes, "I delivered my baby." I'm like, "With what?" He replies, "My hands." Then he goes on to tell a story about how his wife gave birth at home because he couldn't make it to the hospital. He didn't laugh when he was telling any of that stuff, and I thought it was so funny. He's one of the quirkiest people I've ever met. He's the type of person I love—so logical that it's a little painful. But also, he's the type of guy who I think has read a book on how normal people interact. You can tell he cares about you, but he kind of has to learn a little bit how to adapt to fit your needs. You can see that, and it's endearing. It makes me love him more.

Shaan Puri

listening to you he's like I am active listening yeah

Alex Hormozi

it's like okay

Sam Parr

Got it, thank you! I love that he wants to show you he cares about you. I like that. He has a really interesting personality.

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, no, the school deal is going exceptionally well. We've, you know, multiplied the business by 5 or 6 times in the last 8 months.

Shaan Puri

Well, well, let's break it down. Why do that deal? It seems like you made a much bigger bet. I'm saying that because you started wearing the hat around, whereas with your other deals, you don't promote. So I'm like, okay, he definitely ponied up for this one. Yeah, made a big bet on this. So why do a SaaS deal? Or, yeah...

Alex Hormozi

you know

Shaan Puri

Why... why do the school deal? How... how'd you figure out the bet size? And was it like a butt-clenching number? And then you...

Alex Hormozi

Know what? What's the plan? Well, I'll say this: breaking out of the deal components, any brand endorsement for me is by far the **butt-clenching** component of it, not the cash. You only have 3 or 4 brand bullets that you can use where you can promote without becoming a shell, right? So, if I looked at my audience, I think about the people who best monetize an audience: do percentage conversion times lifetime value (LTV). That's it. What percentage of your audience do you convert, and what's the lifetime gross profit per customer? That's the math. The person who makes the most money wins. The big thing that I saw with my audience is that obviously we have a very skewed monetization structure because we have portfolio companies where we just make a tremendous amount on like a handful, and then everything else kind of doesn't matter.

Sam Parr

and do you even promote you don't even promote those others

Alex Hormozi

Right, no, I don't know. No, the other... no, not at all. That's just... but they come inbound, though. So, that still comes from content often. But a huge percentage of my audience are people who want to start a business. That's probably some of the people who listen to your stuff. They're people who are employees, they're high up, they're executives, things like that. Or they want to start a business of their own, whatever. So, I was like, okay, there's this entire huge part of my audience that wants to start a business, and I want to have something for them. I also don't want it to cannibalize Acquisition.com in terms of how we generate deals and things like that. So, it had to be something that would help people start a business, which in my opinion was going to be the closest match, you know, like audience match. So, the highest percentage conversion. It had to be a scalable thing, so I didn't think a service would work given the amount of volume that we have. So, I was like, okay, it has to be something that's demand constrained, not supply constrained. So, it's like, okay, and ideally, if there's something that we can create some sort of network effect and some sort of compounding, you know, machine within it, and it has to be at the right...

Alex Hormozi

In the life cycle of a business, if you're at day a thousand at Facebook, it's probably too late to get in on Facebook at any appreciable percentage. You know what I mean? At that point, I would have less leverage and less value to add to a company of that size. School was a big company in terms of its value and the rounds that they had done already, but I also have a really big brand. It took Sam and me about nine months to work out every component of the deal. In my opinion, it was the best deal I've ever done—not in terms of winning or anything like that, but it's a really elegant deal the way that it works. I'm not at liberty to explain all the pieces of it, but basically, we both gave a lot, and we are both happy with how it's going. We made commitments to each other about what we can and can't do. For example, if someone is going to come on and be in an ad for School, I have to be okay with it because I have a strong association with that. So, how can I mitigate this risk? How can you mitigate that? To circle back to the original question, why did I do the School deal? I felt like I had 70% of the audience that I have because there are always way more people who want to start a business than those who have one, especially if you make business content. I wanted to have something for that audience that met all those other requirements. I knew Sam, and he told me about School two weeks into him starting it. I was kind of like, "Well, I'm not going to try and bet on a platform at day one." That's where Sam has just massive balls.

Sam Parr

I think on our podcast, he said he spent **$10,000,000** of his own money to fund the business. I also think he said that was the bulk of all his money.

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, it was... I mean, I think he's been public about it. Then he still raised another $5 million to continue reinvesting in the business. When I saw the metrics of the school, it had everything that you want. It had viral organic growth; it was compounding, you know, 20% every single month, month over month. I was like, "This thing's a fucking monster." It was right at that point where he said, "We need to grow," and I was like, "Okay, I need a product." So it was a perfect match, and it's worked really well.

Shaan Puri

That's great. Last time you were on, you were talking about how you started doing minority deals, then you sort of realized, "Damn, we're creating so much value on the deals that win. We basically wish we owned more on anything that works." And you're like, "Maybe we'll switch to doing majority." Where'd you land on that? What's the evolved thinking on that? I don't know if that relates to how you did the school deal, but just in general also.

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, it's almost all majority. It's almost all majority. Like, if we're going to do a minority, it's gotta be a massive company. You know, like for us to do that, I basically have... and one of the unfortunate things with content is like my deadline has continued to move up. So, like, I finally hit $1,000,000 in profit and I was like, you know, we're kind of looking at like $5 or $10 million in profit now, like for a minimum to look at. Because right now, the portfolio is $250,000,000 a year. We do $70,000,000 in EBITDA. We have consolidated... like the smallest percentage ownership we have is 20%, and the largest is 100%. I think our aggregate is somewhere around 42% if you blend all the percentages together. So we have meaningful chunks of the companies. Are you...?

Shaan Puri

Like our friends, we have a couple of friends that are doing this. I was talking to them about metrics, and they were saying, you know, with the holdco like this, there are a couple of different things you can go for. One is just free cash flow. So, how much cash are these businesses spinning out? They buy cash flow businesses; that's their play. They don't care as much about the equity appreciation. Obviously, they care, but...

Alex Hormozi

yeah first and foremost they're looking for

Shaan Puri

Cash flow generation is key. They picked free cash flow, and I know other people in private equity who are looking for, ultimately, a return on capital invested or a multiple on capital invested. So, what's the main metric for you with acquisitions? How do you measure if you're doing a good job deploying capital or not?

Alex Hormozi

I have thought about it as deal by deal. School is obviously an appreciation play, you know, like that will realize all of the gains from that year into the future. Whereas there are some companies that we buy that are pure cash flow deals. It really just depends on, I mean, deal by deal. So we don't have a mandate, which is one of the reasons why I haven't had LPs. Just because of the nature of having inbound deal flows, we get weird deals. Some of them are very interesting; they have to buy out a partner, and it's like this weird, terrible situation. But no one else wants to get into it. We're operators, so we're happy to get into it. We can get really good valuations, and maybe we get both in terms of cash flow. But I'd say for us in cash flow, we're probably on pace to do $40 million in cash flow, just like our slice for the year.

Shaan Puri

That's incredible! And how much capital did it take to get to that, right? Because that's the skill, that's the finesse. If it takes $1,000,000,000 to generate plenty of cash flow, that's one thing. If it took $50,000,000 to generate $40, that's incredible, right?

Alex Hormozi

Not a lot. It's been mostly because what Layla and I have realized in this process is that we're better at building.

Sam Parr

better at building than buying

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, so like I did a deal a month for about two years. Of those, I've gotten rid of like... I basically just said, "Here's your equity, I don't even care." So, like, 80% of them. We just basically did an 80/20 split because it wasn't worth the time. I was like, "You can keep the cash, and I will give you the equity back." I don't like this; it's just not worth the time anymore. But like, the largest two companies in our portfolio together will do $150,000,000, and we own very large chunks of those companies with probably consolidated EBITDA of around $60 million.

Shaan Puri

When you say "build," you don't mean incubate from scratch. You're saying once we get in there, we just do a **ton** of work and we kind of run the business.

Alex Hormozi

yeah so like the company that's doing a 110 right now which is the largest portfolio

Sam Parr

can you say which one no

Alex Hormozi

I just don't do any news besides school. Okay, it's a B2C (business-to-consumer) business. But it started with $2,000,000 in trailing 12 months when we got it. We own 29% of the business, and this year it'll do on its own between $35,000,000 and $40,000,000 in EBITDA.

Shaan Puri

Wow, what was the unlock for that one? Well, what did you guys do that cranked it up so much? Because that's...

Alex Hormozi

I'll tell you I'll tell you all the stuff we did so and by the way you

Sam Parr

still only have 30% of it yeah

Alex Hormozi

That's 29%. It hasn't changed. So in the beginning, it was just basically a handful of founders that were together. They'd figured out a way to generate positive ROI on the front end in terms of getting customers, but they had no back end.

Shaan Puri

can can you say category like ecom licensing like just like a general architect publishing

Alex Hormozi

Yeah, it's a publishing business. They were getting like 3 to 1 upfront LTV to CAC. So I was like, "Hey man, wouldn't it be cool if we sold our customers something else?" It's actually a really funny story if you guys want to hear it. We were negotiating this deal and we were right near the end. We all agreed we needed to have some sort of second upsell, some sort of back end that's going to build some sort of continuity, whatever. They were like, "We've already got it! We've already built it all out. We're super passionate about it. We want to show people how to build a business like this." I was like, "That's not it. It was a B2C business. It's like a publishing business that helps you publish books and things like that." I was like, "This has nothing to do with what we do." They were like, "No, we're passionate about it. We know our customers are going to be passionate about it too if we're passionate about it." So I was like, "This is kind of a deal breaker for me. I don't want to do that." They were like, "Well, it's done." So I said, "Okay," and we were pretty much at the...

Alex Hormozi

Where we're going to walk away, I said, "Crazy idea! Why don't you just survey the audience and put your offer next to my offer and just see which one they want?"

Shaan Puri

and I

Alex Hormozi

Was like, "If they want your offer more, I'll kill myself and we won't do this deal." I was like, "And if they do want it, we do the deal." They were like, "Fine." So we ran it, and 85% of people wanted my offer. My offer was more of that thing you just bought. It was a great moment; everybody came together as we did the deal. Then we built out that back end, which was 1.9x LTV. Now, we've actually increased this to 2.2x LTV. We kept the same 3 to 1, but we were able to 5x advertising in terms of how much we could advertise and spend, so we could be profitable.

Sam Parr

Which is basically... I mean, this is just like any digital marketer who's been in the game for 10 years or so. You know, like this is the game. This is pretty standard stuff.

Shaan Puri

but every business owner has blind spots right

Alex Hormozi

yeah of course

Shaan Puri

so many business I look at it's like oh we have we have 5 x roas it's like cool why aren't you spending more

Alex Hormozi

yeah

Shaan Puri

They don't have an answer. It's not like they have some complicated reason for not knowing. They're saying, "I don't know. I haven't really thought about it." Yeah, it's like...

Sam Parr

or they get romantic about it and they're like well we don't wanna we don't wanna like market it too much we'll be annoyed

Shaan Puri

I read this thing that said we need to have this margin. It's like, "No, no, no, dude. You do this for 2 years, you get 10x bigger." Right? Like, you are... you know, there's a story they tell themselves or a blind spot. Or [it's like when someone asks], "Hey, how'd you get all these customers like 6 months ago?" It's like, "Oh, I used to go to these events." "Do you go to those events anymore?" "No, I got tired of it."

Alex Hormozi

yeah then the truckers are gone right

Shaan Puri

do you want this to grow or like what's going on here

Alex Hormozi

Right, so it went from $2,000,000 to $16,000,000, then to $50,000,000, then $70,000,000, and this year we'll do $110,000,000. We hired 40 salespeople so that we could add that backend in. We added a Chief Marketing Officer (CMO), a Chief Product Officer (CPO), and a whole product team to help the Chief Product Officer out. We also added a controller. One of the things that we do at Dot Com is recruit. Because we have a lot of inbound interest, we have a lot of talent in my audience. I might not endorse the company publicly, but from a private perspective, we will endorse and recruit at Holdco. We usually hire higher quality talent than a portfolio can get, place the high-quality talent, and then they just grow way faster.

Sam Parr

well why wouldn't you recruit that promote that company

Alex Hormozi

Why wouldn't I? It's because I don't want to keep... well, one, I don't like promoting lots of things. So that's a big thing for me. I don't want to promote a lot of stuff. It's one that I am considering, to be fair, but it couldn't handle the amount of volume that I can send now. And now it's probably close because we actually built a SaaS component to that business. The software is now doing about 50% of the revenue in that business, and so that's going to be a monster deal. There is that... like we took the team from a handful of guys with some VAs to now the company's got, you know, 100 employees and a whole leadership suite, a whole executive suite. It's a company, you know what I mean? That just took a lot of work in four and a half years. Our first kind of batch of deals that we did, we have our handful of winners that have come from that.

Sam Parr

what did you pay for that by the way the 30% how much cash did you put up upfront

Alex Hormozi

like almost nothing I'll say like a negligible amount relative to what we do

Sam Parr

So, you made tens of millions of dollars in value, potentially more, in 4 years. And you made it for everyone, it sounds like. Yeah.

Alex Hormozi

Dude, I wanna normalize this because I think this is really cool. I just did this... I just ran our stats this last weekend. Our average founder return on equity, so post-deal, how much more is their slice worth? Like every PE buyer says, "Listen, and you could make more on the second bite," right? So it's everyone's like the same pitch. Our average founder return on equity, net of the chunk that we now own, is **13x**.

Shaan Puri

That's silly. That's crazy.

Alex Hormozi

right so it's like at that. I was like you should pay me

Shaan Puri

Well, dude, so I did a deal that was similar. I can talk about it now because the numbers have come out a little bit. This deal was at the time called Shepherd, and now it's called Somewhere. So, it's Somewhere.com. It's basically a way you can hire top talent overseas. In the U.S., that same role for a developer might be $150,000 or $180,000. A lot of business owners don't want to do that; they're trying to be more profitable.

Alex Hormozi

in that

Shaan Puri

Yeah, so Nick was in the business, and then I wanted to join AI. I liked that blueprint, so I was like, "Okay, that's a business I'm either going to start, I'm going to buy into, or I'm going to do something." I tested all the services out, and I was like, "Okay, I like this one." So I approached Marshall and cut a deal that I thought was so good for me. My objective when I do a deal is that it has to be good for me. I'm not going to do a deal that's bad for me, but I want it to be good for both sides. Sure, but if I'm being honest in my heart of hearts, I was like, "I think this is a good deal for him and a great deal for me." Turns out, I had it totally flipped. What ended up happening was we put in a small amount of money, and then, actually, the business was already making $1,000,000 a year in profit. I was like, "I can't value you this low, but I'm bringing value that's not cash, so how are we going to do this?" They were like, "Look, how about we do this?" This was Nick's idea, actually. Nick was like, "The business will loan you the money to buy your shares." I was like, "Sick! Okay, you're going to give me the money to buy you? Alright, sign me up! You know, say no more." And that's when I was like, "Okay, this is an incredible deal for me, and it's a really good deal for them because I knew I was going to grow the business."

Alex Hormozi

sure

Shaan Puri

I didn't know exactly by how much and how long it would take, and all that. What ended up happening was, at the time, I think Marshall had an opportunity to sell the business for something in the range of, let's call it, **$15,000,000**. See, that's what he was looking at. He didn't want to sell; he believed in the business. So, he decided not to sell, but he had gone out and looked at offers. That was kind of where a realistic deal might have gotten done. A year later, the numbers came out. The buyout happened at a **$52,000,000** valuation. So, in less than a year—basically, like 9 months—the business went from being worth **$15,000,000** to **$52,000,000**. I thought I was getting this incredible deal on my equity. Actually, Marshall got by far the most value out of the deal in less than a year. The only thing that changed was me coming in and being able to help the business in different ways. I realized, "Oh shit, that's the metric that matters." Of course, I'm always going to protect my bottom line to try to make this work, but the only way that this model works long-term is if the founders get a stupid return on equity after my split. Y Combinator (YC) does the same thing. They used to get a lot of criticism because they would give you **$18,000**—like **$6,000** per founder in a company—and they would take **6%** or **7%**. People used to say, "Well, YC is getting in at an effective valuation of like **$1,000,000** into these future Dropbox, Airbnb—those are YC companies." Paul Graham came out and said, "There's a very simple equation: you do one divided by the equity you gave me." So, basically, it's like if you gave me **7%**, but I make the company worth **10%** more because I'm now involved in the company, it was a good trade. You would do that all the time. Obviously, they add a lot more than **10%**, so it became kind of a no-brainer. It was a different lens to look at than just total valuation, which I think is where most founders get stuck—either due to Shark Tank or just whatever. That's the general parlance: "Is this the right valuation? Am I getting a fair valuation or not?" Versus, if I gave you **10%** of equity, but I knew you'd triple the value of my business, of course, I would take that trade **100%** of the time.

Alex Hormozi

Right, and then the risk that's associated is: what if you don't do anything? And so then you covenant around that. I think I'm a big... I'm a big personally. I love performance stuff because I know I'll hit it. So people tend to be like, "Well, if we hit that," I'm like, "Cool! If you're good with that, I'm good with that."

Shaan Puri

sam you were smirking am I high on my own supplier what what what were you laughing at

Sam Parr

You're not high on your own supplier? No, I like it. I think that we're glamorizing the buying of businesses because, Alex, you're doing it wonderfully. And Sean, you told the story of doing it wonderfully. Whenever I hear these stories, I'm like, "This sounds awesome!" Then I get into the nitty-gritty and I'm like, "I hate this." I love starting stuff from scratch. I get so much more joy from crafting the brand, putting my personality into it, and calling customers on the phone early on. Hearing their feedback is like commuting; I'm practicing my bits to see what works well. I love that so much more than having to buy things because it makes my soul feel better. Now, we could debate all day if the numbers make sense for you. In both those examples you guys gave, the numbers make so much more sense. It's hard to create that much value in four years starting something from scratch. So, what I want to know is: do you feel that way? I mean, you started something for a while. Do you ever get a little bit of that vibe when you're starting something from scratch?

Shaan Puri

the artist's regret

Sam Parr

the artist's regret

Shaan Puri

that's fine

Sam Parr

yeah you're like dude I'm producing all these artists I'm not actually writing songs

Alex Hormozi

you know

Shaan Puri

What I'm saying is, I miss that art. It's actually more like the analogy would be like a label. You're a label.

Alex Hormozi

sure

Sam Parr

or whatever

Shaan Puri

and you get to go be in the in the studio

Alex Hormozi

I get that. I would say, first of all, I do consider myself a businessman. So if I were to give myself a title, I feel like that's probably most appropriate. That being said, I do get a lot of the stuff that I like a lot, which is the big picture decisions. This is like, "What big bets are we gonna make?" I love that stuff. It's like, "Okay, we have... What's our one big bet for the year?" And then spending a tremendous amount of time doing research and being like, "Okay, this is where we're gonna go and this is how we're [going to approach it]."

Sam Parr

what's an example of that you made a year and a half or 2

Alex Hormozi

Was it the software component for the publishing business? So, it was not that. It was basically a consumer service business, fundamentally like an education service or whatever. I think the revenue was a 50/50 split between the two. I was like, "We have to put some sort of software thing in here that we can facilitate." So either we get a tech-enabled service multiple or we just get a pure SaaS multiple. This was a year and a half ago when we started putting a few million dollars into developing the software. It now has just had a tremendous uptake rate, improved conversion rates, and improved client success scores—all of these things. That was a bet, you know? To be fair, for a company that size, even when we made the bet, I think we were doing somewhere around $20 million in EBITDA. So, you know, betting 10% or 15% of net free cash is not like a massive bet. But from a resources perspective, the attention of the leadership team was where the big bet was. And so, kind of like the...

Alex Hormozi

With the brand versus the cash, like if I'm going to do a deal and I promote it, the biggest slice that I'm giving is the audience and the attention, not the cash. **The value of brand and audience:** - When making a deal, the most significant contribution is often the *audience* and *attention* brought by the brand - This can be more valuable than the actual cash investment It's important to recognize that in many business deals, especially those involving promotion or marketing, the reach and influence of a brand can be far more valuable than monetary contributions. This highlights the importance of building a strong brand and engaged audience as business assets.

Shaan Puri

what's a company you would wanna go buy right now let's say you had the money net today what type of company would you go buy

Alex Hormozi

I probably want to buy a big professional services business. What does that mean? Businesses like plumbing, payroll, financial services, or businesses like accounting and tax—these are the things that every business has to have. I like those businesses. I mean, I love service businesses. Even though 40% of our portfolio is software, I still like service, tech-enabled service. I see software as software as a service. I just feel like I get those types of businesses because there are so many areas where my skill set—like tweaking pricing, figuring out the sales process, and demand generation—can make a huge impact.

Shaan Puri

I got one more question for you, which is: what are you trying to figure out? One trap you could fall into is being "the advice guy." It's like, here's the guy who turns on the camera and gives everybody advice all the time, which is inherently somewhat of a know-it-all position. This can be dangerous on the audience side, as eventually, people start to resist that. More importantly, for yourself, you got where you are because you were the student. Now you're reaping the benefits of being the teacher, but you still want to be the student. So, I'm curious: where are you still the student right now? What are you trying to figure out? What are your unanswered questions that you're noodling on? Maybe we could help you out or help you talk through this.

Alex Hormozi

I would say the big things that I'm still *green* on are the fund world and raising capital, like Limited Partners (LPs). I don't have any experience with LPs; I've always used my own money. I don't use debt, but I will probably use more debt in the future. I just haven't yet. So, those are all things that I am spending more time on. That being said, to be very candid with you, I feel like—Sam and I talk about this, my partner Sam—there are periods of figuring things out and then there are periods of doing. I'm in a period of doing right now. When I get to a constraint, because right now the plan of growing more media and growing the companies has been working, I want to do more *better*, not new. So, I'm going to continue to do more *better* until more *better* stops working, and then I will look at something new. In terms of where I see my deficiencies from the private equity perspective, LPs and debt are things that I would say are weaknesses of mine in terms of understanding because I've used my own capital. But in terms of limits for the business right now, I think the biggest threat is always focus. That's why I try to say no to everything.

Shaan Puri

except coming on this podcast because we're your boys

Sam Parr

dude you're the man

Alex Hormozi

you guys are the man

Sam Parr

I'm happy you're feeling healthy. You're looking good as always. We appreciate you. Is that the pod, Sean?

Shaan Puri

that's it