The #1 Sign That Someone Will Become A Billionaire By 40 (#364)

Shaan Puri

Here he goes. Seven of the eight richest people in the world right now in America are fierce nerds. You have people like Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos—these types of folks. He says intelligence is part of the equation, but fierce nerds are not necessarily the winners because they are the smartest of the nerds. In fact, they are usually only moderately intelligent compared to other nerds. However, they are way more competitive and impatient than the average nerd. This is the difference between who becomes a professor and who becomes a founder or a great investor. Alright, in this episode, we're talking about Sam's fight with a bunch of nannies.

Sam Parr

Yeah, it's... that's a crazy story. In the beginning, Sean just had lunch with a billionaire. I had dinner with him a few days before. Super fascinating guy. We're actually going to share a couple of stories that very few people get to see. I think that's the most interesting part.

Shaan Puri

We also have a couple of ideas. We got an **applesque** bath business for bathrooms and a business around the idea of an IQ test. So that's a little side hustle we have for you. This has everything: we got frameworks, we got stories, we got ideas, we got it all.

Sam Parr

Have you ever seen this meme of a black guy with a red shirt, clasping hands with a white guy in a blue shirt? It's like a "we're in this together" type of vibe.

Shaan Puri

the firm the firm handshake meme

Sam Parr

Yeah, it's like us versus the world—race, class, it doesn't matter. I've just had a real-life incident like that happen to me. So, I was out—I'm in Brooklyn right now. I was in this park in front of my house, doing push-ups and sit-ups, and just walking my dog, hanging out. I see this guy, or I see like these four nannies all skedaddle out of an area where they're sitting. Then I see this dude who's clearly harassing them, coming after them. I run over there and I'm like, "Hey, what's going on?" They're like, "This guy just spit on us. He's acting crazy. He's bothering us." So, I give him my dog's leash because I had my dog with me and I say, "Hey, hold my dog for me." I walk over and start talking to the guy to get him to go away. Then it’s like, "Oh, this is clearly gonna become a fistfight." Five other guys who are all around the street—these guys just basically sit on the block all day. I don't know what they do, but one dude was a Dominican guy, another guy was Black. And I'm sitting there shirtless in bright green running shorts with a fanny pack on, with AirPods still in my ear. We just corral these women—these four nannies, like a Jamaican nanny, an Asian nanny, and an older white woman. It was like we were all just corralling these nannies in this circle, standing there like an elephant guarding its herd, you know what I'm saying? It was like the real-life meme of us coming together. At the end, the crazy person walked away, and we just looked at each other like, "Job well done." You know, just like, who cares about our backgrounds? Who cares what we look like? We were champions of the nannies, and I just got hyped over that.

Shaan Puri

First of all, the fanny and the nannies—that's an amazing combo. Don't mess with that. Secondly, what was that analogy? Like an elephant guarding its herd? I don't know.

Sam Parr

I watched National Geographic, and when the lions come, the whole community of elephants gets in a circle. They put the babies in the middle and they're just saying, "You know, bring it on, dog." They're just ready to fight. That's how it felt like we were just these...

Shaan Puri

You're like, you know, they call people a "Renaissance man." You're not a Renaissance man, but you do have this strange set of influences that you watch, consume, and play with. So, like, we need another word. You're like a "redneck song man." Yeah, I don't know what these things are. You're like, you know, when you're swashbuckling over the thing, it's like, "No, I don't know that." Like, why do you know that?

Sam Parr

I like, you know, I'm watching *Cops*, but on commercial break, I'm reading Ernest Hemingway. You know what I'm saying? Like, you can't...

Shaan Puri

stop me

Sam Parr

exactly you can't stop me

Shaan Puri

you know

Sam Parr

what I'm saying how many

Shaan Puri

episodes of cops have you watched all of them

Sam Parr

jacksonville florida is my favorite part how do you think I know so much about florida

Shaan Puri

I feel like what episode have I not watched

Sam Parr

Alright, dude. By the way, "Cops," I think, was the first reality TV show, and that started in the eighties.

Shaan Puri

I love cops this happened this morning for you

Sam Parr

yeah like an hour and a half ago

Shaan Puri

Isn't it amazing when something incredible happens in the morning? The rest of your day feels completely different, and you have a totally different pep in your step. I remember once I went skydiving, and I did it in the morning. Skydiving was okay; it was cool, whatever. It's over in like 5 minutes, right? There's a lot of build-up, and then it's just over in 5 minutes. It's like your first time doing it—there's a lot of anticipation, and then it's just done. The one thing I remember was that it was 8:30 in the morning, and then I had to go on with the rest of my day. I also made the same joke about your first time doing it, and you said the same joke, so that's why I was like, "Okay."

Sam Parr

oh shit

Shaan Puri

but we could do it again we can do it 2 times that's like when you when you

Sam Parr

When you make a joke the second time and someone's like, "You already said that one," I'm like, "Oh, why? I thought no one heard me."

Shaan Puri

Thought maybe you didn't hear it. Yeah, but the rest of your day is like you feel like a champion who could do all things. That's how I felt the day after I skied, the morning after I skydived. I feel like you're in that mood now, right? You fought off the crazy guy, the crazy spitting guy, with a bunch of nannies. You saved a bunch of nannies and, by proxy, their babies. So, I don't know, you could kind of do anything. I could just tell you, "Hey Sam, you know, recite the next 5 companies that are going to become $1,000,000,000,000 companies," and you could just tell me. I can ask you any question right now, and you could answer.

Sam Parr

Yeah, dude, look. I created the UN of fighting off, you know, bad guys. It was just a bunch of us, all looking different, from different backgrounds. It was like the beginning of a nineties sitcom, you know what I'm saying?

Shaan Puri

like yeah

Sam Parr

you know the blue collar guy the doctor you know we all came together yeah it was it was right

Shaan Puri

it was like a cross between you know golden girls and like power rangers yeah

Sam Parr

So, can we talk about Dharmesh? I have a lot of interesting things to discuss because I get to hang out with him. Can you talk about what you all did?

Shaan Puri

Yeah, I think we both basically hung out with Dharmesh. Dharmesh is the founder of HubSpot. HubSpot is the company that bought your company. He's a billionaire. HubSpot has been around for, I don't even know how many years—15 plus years now.

Sam Parr

from the beginning

Shaan Puri

So, kind of an epic founder built a, I don't know, a $20,000,000,000 company or something like that. Awesome guy, really fun to hang out with. He listens to the pod, so he's kind of like-minded and knows our personalities. But we had never hung out in person. Neither had you. I think you hung out with him at the conference, and then a few days later, I grabbed lunch with him because he flew to San Francisco. Give me your kind of initial take. What did you like? Was there maybe something that you didn't expect? I'll do the same.

Sam Parr

So, he's lovely. He's a sweetheart of a person. He's easy to talk to and seems incredibly emotionally well-balanced. He knows what he is and what he isn't, making for a lovely hang. The second thing, and I mean this with love as a compliment, is that he is so odd. He has done so many unique things in his life that you wouldn't even know. He's odd in that he's quirky, but he's also incredibly eclectic. He's done so many interesting things, and when he tells you the stories about them, you realize, "Oh, you're a lovely guy to be around. You have my back, and we're friends." But you are kind of a shark; you win at everything you do and spot opportunities. For example, he just casually throws out these things. He's done this to me like eight times. I found out that when he was in his twenties, he almost didn't want to start tech companies because he was going to become a professional poker player. I was like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah, basically, my brother and I were up like mid to high six figures over our short career in blackjack because we learned how to play blackjack and do well." He also speaks a language that isn't very common. I actually don't know what language it is, but it's one that they don't even speak that much in India. He said, "We could talk at the tables and discuss strategy, and no one would even know." He just would win. He knows how to do it the right way, and he almost became a professional poker player. So, he has all these little weird things that he'll tell stories about, and I'm like, "Oh, you're a killer, and you're also so unique."

Shaan Puri

yeah have you ever read that paul graham blog post called fierce nerds

Sam Parr

no what is it I mean years ago 10 years ago it's old right

Shaan Puri

No, not that old. Maybe like... let's see, when did he publish this? Did he publish this in 2021? So, one year... oh no, I didn't know. I haven't read it, but it's an amazing post. I'm going to read you a couple pieces of it. It is one of those posts like Paul Graham. I think somebody said this earlier: they go, "What's that guy, Andrew Tate?" They sent him some tweet that was really funny. It was, "Paul Graham was my Andrew Tate growing up." Same! Which is just so funny. It's such a deep cut joke, but if you get it, you're like, it just hits the spot. So, alright, he wrote this post and he goes, "Most people think of nerds as quiet, you know, sort of like diffident people, right? Just sort of like, you know, passive." And in most social situations, they are. They're quiet, and you know, they're not the star quarterback in the middle of the gym, right? They're...

Sam Parr

kind of a fish out

Shaan Puri

Of water in a bunch of different things. He goes, "But this is an illusion because that only happens when non-nerds observe them. They're observing them in non-nerdy situations." So, you see a nerd at prom; you just see them as a quiet sort of passive nerd. There's no alpha in them. He goes, "But in fact, some nerds are quite fierce." Fierce nerds are a small but interesting group. They are extremely competitive—more competitive, I would say, than competitive non-nerds. The competition is more personal to them, partly because they're not emotionally mature and they distance themselves from it. But also because there's less randomness in the types of competition that they engage in. Therefore, they're justified in making it more personal. This is like fierce nerds who get really into chess or a game that is less luck-based and more skill-based. This often happens with gaming or programming competitions, math competitions, or spelling bees.

Sam Parr

or it's

Shaan Puri

way less about luck and way more about skill

Sam Parr

Damesh told me a story. He was like, "When I was in grade school or high school, I got in trouble because I just didn't go to school or something like that." I asked him why, and he said, "Well, I had never seen a ping pong table, and they had one of those in the dorm. Right when I saw it, I decided I'm going to be the best at this." So, I dedicated my high school years to being the best ping pong player. But sorry, go ahead.

Shaan Puri

really

Sam Parr

yes

Shaan Puri

That's amazing! I love how you get these gems out of people. What question do you ask that gets that answer?

Sam Parr

I like... I'll just say, "Wow, you're really unique! How are you so... why are you so different?"

Shaan Puri

no no how did you really say wow you're so freaking weird man

Sam Parr

yeah I would say did you do weird

Shaan Puri

stuff your whole life

Sam Parr

I was like, "You're a weirdo." I'm like, "I'm kind of a weirdo." I'll say, like, "I'm kind of a weirdo too," but you're like extreme weird. What were you like in high school?

Shaan Puri

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the Sam Park question. I needed to get that out of you. Those are great because, I'll be honest with you, I had lunch with him and he's a super nice guy. By the way...

Sam Parr

way keep keep reading your article

Shaan Puri

Okay, yeah, fair enough. So, he goes on to talk about it. He says, "Here are some other things about fierce nerds." One, they're independent-minded. They're willing to stand on what they believe, even though it is socially awkward. You know, in school, this becomes kind of a liability for them. But as soon as they graduate and enter the professional world, it becomes an extreme asset for them. They're also impatient. They're annoyed by rules rather than being unaware of them or passively following them. He mentions, "I'm not sure why fierce nerds are impatient, but most of them seem to be." You'll notice that, at first, in conversation, they tend to interrupt you. At first, it's merely annoying, but for the more promising fierce nerds, it's connected to a deeper impatience about solving the problem. They have this competitiveness and impatience, right? So, those are two of the characteristics. He goes on to say that when you combine these qualities in sufficient quantity, the result is quite formidable. Then he gives some examples, and he goes, "That's..."

Sam Parr

a beautiful sentence by the way

Shaan Puri

one more part

Sam Parr

if you combine these in sufficient yeah that's a really good sentence

Shaan Puri

yeah here he goes 7 of the 8 richest people in the world right now on or in america right now are fierce nerds right so you have like zuckerberg bill gates elon musk like you have these like these types jeff bezos these types of folks he goes the bad news he goes he goes indeed he basically but also he says intelligence is you know part of the thing but fierce nerds are not they're not winners because they're the smartest of the nerds in fact they're usually only moderately intelligent compared to other nerds but they are way more competitive and impatient than than the average nerd and this is the difference between basically like who becomes a professor and who becomes like a founder or a great investor or something like this and so he goes he goes he goes the idea of a fierce nerd is not a common one so a lot of you might be reading this and might realize that's me and he goes and now and I love this writing he goes and it is to you young fierce nerd that I now turn and he goes and he starts talking directly to the fierce nerd he goes he goes I got good good news and bad news the good news is your fierceness is gonna help you solve difficult problems so you know scientific technical problems blah blah blah you can get rich in business in greed it is great for you know survival to be a fierce nerd he goes the bad news is that if not exercised your fierceness will turn into bitterness and you'll become an intellectual playground bully a grumpy sysadmin the forum troll the hater and the shooter down of new ideas he goes how do you avoid this fate and by the way he created hacker news so I think he runs into a lot of fierce nerds on hacker news he goes how do you avoid this fate work on ambitious projects because if you succeed it brings you the kind of satisfaction that will neutralize your bitterness you don't have to succeed to feel this merely working on hard projects gives most fierce nerds a sense of satisfaction and it and it and even if you don't succeed it'll keep you busy so you're not so bitter I thought this is an amazing blog post like one of his you you you you best I sent literally I read this I sent it to emmett at twitch I was like hey it's you like this is you this is what I would describe you as like a fierce nerd and he went through y combinator so you know he's like you know the archetype for it

Sam Parr

So, you just pulled this up, by the way, without having any preparation, and you did a really good job, by the way, of reading that. I was like enthralled. But dude, Paul Graham, it's very...

Shaan Puri

Hard, by the way, because I read this a year ago. I'm skimming it, trying to cut the boring parts and also remember, "What the hell was this article about?" That was actually quite difficult.

Sam Parr

I know you did a really good job. I was like, "Tell me more, tell me more." Paul Graham's a great writer. I'm going to go back and reread that. Okay, and I interrupted you... I interrupted the interruption. So, you met with Dharmesh and you said, to be honest, he was a nice guy. I forget what you said.

Shaan Puri

so so he's a fierce nerd that's the first thing and I think you pulled out some good stories the ping pong story the poker story this is classic fierce nerd hallmarks right all green flags going going towards that the second part was super nice guy and our lunch was totally fine but there is a certain it's he's this type of person actually there's a bunch of people like this I might be like this where you're almost better to talk to online it's like you spent more time talking to people online that your online social skill is better than your in person social skill I felt this myself because right I left the house for the first time in many you know many days to go do a social hangout like he even texted he was like you know totally understand by the way if you don't wanna come I'm like you I don't like to leave the house and you know I'm protective of my time and I was like no no no I wanna do this I'll I'll drive an hour let's do this I felt rusty and I could feel almost that he was a little rusty or like put differently not rusty necessarily but his main comfort zone right his pocket his cockpit as a pilot is sitting at his desk in front of a computer and I know a bunch of people like this I have a this guy who used to work with jake if you met him he's as quiet as mouse in slack he's like the class clown and I was like what who is this guy that's you dude you're like the most soft spoken like you know that foot pedal on a piano that makes all the keys like muted he's like that for real life like somebody needs to like take the foot off the foot pedal for him and but then you get him in slack and the guy's like you know the number one troll willing to cut the edgy jokes and and I was like I can't believe this is the same guy and it's like he was 21 years old he basically grew up in malaysia his only like english social interactions were online in like in chat rooms games discord that sort of thing and so you know that's just his persona and I've met so many people that are like this that I've now come to realize it's not something weird about them it's actually a completely normal thing and it's better to just figure out what's you where are you the most you is it through text messaging is it on phone calls is it through written emails is it in person is it like long form in person what is the version of you that's the most you like what would you say it is for you

Sam Parr

Writing, like long-form writing, I think that's what I prefer. Like these podcasts... I usually have to lay down for like 30 minutes because I'm... I'm dead after them. So, no, I mean I'm okay at this, but writing I prefer. But listen to this: I think Dharmesh would actually agree.

Shaan Puri

with you to elevate your legs to to get the blood back to your brain

Sam Parr

Yeah, I'm just like... I'm so tired. I passed out. What happened? Darmesh would probably agree with you, I would imagine. But listen to this. They asked you and me to show up. Basically, I was supposed to speak at this event, and they're like, "Hey, one of the main people had to cancel because something happened. Can you show up in 12 hours, the next morning, and come and speak in front of 10,000 people?" I was like, "I mean, I guess I could just show up and riff in front of 10,000 people, but I don't prefer that." I asked, "Does Darmesh want to do a thing?" They said, "No, he hates public speaking." I said, "Just let me ask him; he'll do it." So he ended up doing it. Backstage, I asked him about that, and he said, "Yeah, I hate public speaking. I'm not good at it." I go, "Well, you just did a keynote earlier today. Why'd you do that?" He goes, "I'll tell you why. Basically, for the 6 months, or 5 months, or whatever it was leading up to this event, I had this process where I read a bunch of comedy books. I realized that the laugh per minute was the most important thing for a talk." So what I did was, first, I made a presentation. I created a Zoom call and got 10 HubSpot employees to do it, and I recorded the whole thing. Then I got 20 to come, then 50 to come, and then 100 to come. Each time, I adapted, and I built this Python script that analyzed the audio of the call to figure out what my laugh per minute was. Each time, I adapted it to get more laughs per minute. For example, he knew the exact numbers. He said, "I had 96 slides in this presentation, and I had to click 'next' 120 times. I know on which laugh and on which word to hit 'next' because I practiced it so much. I'm optimizing for laughs per minute." He kept calling it the "LPM."

Shaan Puri

wow

Sam Parr

and

Shaan Puri

and what the hell this is amazing

Sam Parr

yes I'm looking

Shaan Puri

for these types of stories

Sam Parr

It's amazing! He and I went back and watched his talk. In fact, here's another side tangent: Have you ever been to a big conference? Have you noticed, whether it's a TED Talk or even Steve Jobs, that all the big conferences with more than 1,000 people use the same slide clicker? Have you ever seen that clicker? It only has two buttons: a red one, which means "back," and a green one, which means "next." So here's the secret: that clicker doesn't actually change the slide. It goes to a light that indicates red or green, and there's someone on the other end of the slide hitting left or right. Did you know that?

Shaan Puri

no why

Sam Parr

So that's like... it's so stupid because they do it because the presenters or the organizers will be like, "Well, in case you screw up, someone's here and we'll do a better job." But it's not automated. This is how it works at all big conferences. It's like this is a clicker or whatever. We have to do a talk on it. Actually, they have completely monopolized it. Every single big conference has this. I told him that, and he goes, "Dude, trust me, I know. I've gotten in fights with these people for 8 years because I built a device and a program to make it so that clicker could actually work directly with the computer." In order to optimize my LPM (lines per minute), I need the click to happen faster than a human being can see the light and click next because that's how I've set it up. Every once in a while, there'll be a slight delay, which decreases my LPM. This is how this guy looks at everything, and he told me...

Shaan Puri

me that lpm like you think about your t levels

Sam Parr

Yeah, he just spends months optimizing his LPM. When I hear stories like this, I think, "Hey, you're unstoppable!" This is why you're successful. And, I love you! You're my hero, and everything you're about, I'm into now. I just love it, man. I love when these people are so extreme about things. It's awesome!

Shaan Puri

That's amazing! What an amazing story. You've made my day. That is really incredible. I can't even... yeah, I can't even kind of wrap my head around the level of nerdery it takes to go that deep on something. You know, I feel like I live my life in this 80/20 way where "good enough" is as good as it gets. I just kind of accept that "good enough" is as good as it gets for almost everything in my life. Very rarely do I try to take something to that nth degree, that Olympic level of obsession. Part of me is very jealous of people who do that. We had another fierce nerd, this guy Quinn, who used to work at our company. Quinn was the same way. He was the most soft-spoken guy you might have met. He had the big crazy...

Sam Parr

I know chair

Shaan Puri

Most soft-spoken guy, gentle. Like, if there was a fly that landed on his wrist, he'd be like, "It's your wrist now, fly." Right? He just didn't want to harm a bug. Never said a bad word about anybody. He was like a fierce nerd. We started playing these little word games in the office, and I was like, "Oh, Quinn, you should play this." You know, like imagine Wordle but like 10 years ago. I could see him getting visibly stressed about it, and I was like, "Whoa, no problem, man. What's wrong? You don't want to play?" He goes, "No, but if I play, then I'm just gonna get super obsessed with it. I'm just gonna take it too far." I was like, "What do you mean?" He said, "Yeah, I just have to be careful with games like this. I just get really into it. I just have to win." I was like, "What do you mean? You are this ruthless competitor! Get out of here!" And he goes, "Did I ever show you the girlfriend thing?" I was like, "What's the girlfriend thing?" He goes, "You know that game that's like that word scramble game? Basically, it's a bunch of letters—9 letters on a grid. You're trying to create as many words as you can just by dragging your finger across the line." He's like, "Yeah, my girlfriend beat me in that game once. Then I went to Google's headquarters and programmed an artificial robot arm to just make as many swipes as possible per second. I just crushed her, and I'd be like, 'I'm the world record holder now of this game.'" He basically created—he programmed the robotic arm, added a little Nerf gun tip to it so it would be soft, like it could just scrape against the screen. Then he programmed it to move in every direction, the optimal path to create as many words as it can in a minute. God! His time is unbelievably higher than everybody else's, and his girlfriend's like, "Well, this game's not fun anymore. What? I don't understand what's happening here." And he's like, "I happened."

Sam Parr

Dude, let me tell you one more last Darmesh story. He owns an 8-figure domain portfolio, so he has random things like cambridge.com, which he just lets the government use. You know how I have this copywriting thing? I was using Try Copy That, and he goes, "Hey, for your birthday, I bought you copythat.com." I was like, "What? That's like tens of..."

Shaan Puri

try not being a bitch you get

Sam Parr

A real dummy! He punched me in the stomach and walked away.

Shaan Puri

I touched the stomach but it gave you the credentials

Sam Parr

Thanks, Dad! Yeah, dude, that's hilarious. So, he owns all these domain names, and I was like, "Okay, well, you have this Wordle thing and you have all these domains. Any projects that interest you?" He goes, "I've been thinking really a lot about creating a Venn diagram community." I was like, "What? Are you crazy?" He goes, "Well, I own VennDiagram.com, and I love communities. I'm into math, and I think there's a lot of other people who are also obsessed with Venn diagrams. I think I'm gonna build a really cool community for Venn diagrams." I don't know, but it's a funny way.

Shaan Puri

See them having a tattoo on their arm of just a Venn diagram. There's a bunch of Venn diagrams, yeah. Overall, just Venn diagrams, just getting in a room. Ivan overlaps everywhere.

Sam Parr

Yeah, but I don't know. Like, what it's like... There's a circle. You see how this circle is? What are they gonna do, just talk about it all the time? I mean, I don't understand. Like, what the... You know, this circle's bigger, this one's smaller. I don't know.

Shaan Puri

gonna vend man you you can't you can't help it

Sam Parr

but that's what he's gonna build it's a venn diagram community because he owns venn diagram.com

Shaan Puri

Can I tell you 5 random domains that I own? Actually, I'm going to tell you 6 random domains that I own. I want you... I'm going to say, let's play a little game. I'm going to say a domain, and you're going to just pitch me a business off the domain, off the top of your head. Alright?

Sam Parr

okay

Shaan Puri

Alright, you froze. Alright, there you go. Okay, number 1: **excelmonkeys.com**, a domain I own. What does it do?

Sam Parr

alright excelmonkeys.com is where you buy smart

Shaan Puri

chimpanzees that's your best idea with excel monkeys you buy smart monkeys

Sam Parr

yeah because they excel

Shaan Puri

so smart they could use excel

Sam Parr

Yeah, "Excel Monkeys" would be the name of a tax service.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, it could be a tax service. It could also be selling amazing Excel templates for various needs. It's like, "Oh, you need a cash flow statement? Here's a great one." Or, "You need a P&L? Here's a great Excel model."

Sam Parr

for did you buy excel monkeys because that's what I used to call people

Shaan Puri

no did you do that

Sam Parr

Yeah, whenever I meet these finance nerds, I was always jealous of them because they were making more money than me, like my friends. I'd be like, "Dude, you're just an Excel monkey, man." All you do is play on Excel; you don't do anything. You don't create real value like me. You know, I write a newsletter.

Shaan Puri

Dude, I have so many phrases like that. Like bakers who are always making PowerPoints. I'm like, "Ah, freaking slide jockey over here!" I don't even know why, but I want it to be derogatory. The best one of all of them is the finance department that watches the budget. You have to get your expenses approved, and it's like, "Yeah, I gotta go talk to the bean counters." I heard some guy say this; he was in his sixties. I think it's a common phrase, but I was like, "Oh, that sounds like a racial slur as far as I was concerned." I was like, "Wow, calling someone a bean counter? That sounds awful!" You’re allowed to say that in the office? That's incredible! I'm going to use that.

Sam Parr

When I was younger, I was jealous of all these bankers. They'd be like, "Oh, you know, I work in banking." And I'd think, "Oh, no shit! Which branch?" I'd go to the one in Colombia. Is that where you are?

Shaan Puri

you ever been robbed as ever coming with a ski mask can you use a very heavy crayon

Sam Parr

Okay, Accel Monkeys. That's a website for tax experts. What's the next one?

Shaan Puri

Alright, next one: **Skillbad.com**. I own **Skillbad.com**. **Skillbad**... I don't know, it just sounded good. It's too easy to spell and easy to say. Just words put together.

Sam Parr

Skill... bad. Like, you're bad at something. I don't know what on earth.

Shaan Puri

but it's ironic

Sam Parr

what what would you like what would that be what were you thinking

Shaan Puri

It's like Skillshare, bro. He does a layup right there. It's like Skillshare. If you're bad at a skill, come to Skillshare. We help you go from being bad at something to being good at something.

Sam Parr

that's stupid that is really stupid

Shaan Puri

alright thanks

Sam Parr

I can't find this client info

Shaan Puri

have you

Hubspot

**Have you heard of HubSpot?** HubSpot is a CRM platform that shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned, with no out-of-sync spreadsheets or dueling databases. **HubSpot: Grow Better.**

Shaan Puri

I got "It's Tummy Time" dot com. It's tummy time, baby! It's tummy time. Okay, what is it? What are we doing at Tummy Time?

Sam Parr

Just what do you do on tummy time? Is that when the baby just sits there and watches TV? What's tummy time? I don't even know.

Shaan Puri

Oh dude, kind of. They just land on their tummy, and it helps them develop their core strength and their neck strength to look up. So they don't just be face down. But they don't necessarily watch TV. There's a lot you could do with that.

Sam Parr

obviously you're gonna be selling baby aerobics classes

Shaan Puri

I don't know I'm pretty sure you'd go for like a 6 minute abs thing it's tummy time baby and it's

Sam Parr

all I don't even know what that is

Shaan Puri

I I

Sam Parr

you know I'm not I don't I'm not there yet and what are the last 2

Shaan Puri

We're going to have to work on your improv skills. You've been working on comedy, but not improv. I feel like, on the spot, if I throw something at you, I'm going to keep doing this segment until you're ready.

Sam Parr

I'm I'm still at the yes and part of the the book

Shaan Puri

What's the one thing everyone knows about improv? It's just "yes, and." It's like the number one tell that you've never done improv. You say, "You know, in improv, we have this thing called 'yes, and.'" It means don't disagree with me in this meeting. Instead, say "yes, and" and then make my idea better because it's bad right now.

Sam Parr

have you ever gone out to dinner with a bunch of improv people

Shaan Puri

dude I did improv for like you know 8 weeks of my life

Sam Parr

dude I've gone out to dinner what time am I wanna

Shaan Puri

be dinner obnoxious than a bunch of improvers worse I'd rather be with the venn

Sam Parr

Diagram dorks are worse than a bunch of improvers. Yuck! They go to places I don't want to be. Number 2 on top of that list is improvers. Number 1 is people who are part of a cappella groups.

Shaan Puri

oh my god I was about to say the same thing a capella or they're just like hey

Sam Parr

yeah yeah

Shaan Puri

It's like... and it's like, "Yo, oh God, here we go." You know, "Shabuya, chabuya."

Sam Parr

Don't sing to me on the McDonald's live that you won a number one, bruh. Just tell me a big back with the audience.

Shaan Puri

you know what makes any situation worse singing

Sam Parr

I cannot stay on the acapella people. I didn't realize that was a thing. Where I grew up in Missouri, if you were part of the acapella group, people would make fun of you. But then I started meeting people on the East Coast, like those who go to Harvard and Cornell, and they would brag about being part of it.

Shaan Puri

an artist serious about it

Sam Parr

I'd be like, "Dude, why are you telling people that? What are you doing? Don't be talking about it. It doesn't belong in public. You don't talk about that." And they're like, "Why? It's awesome!" I was always amazed at acapella people.

Shaan Puri

Dude, on Duke's campus, like, who gets laid? Number one: basketball players. Number two: acapella singers. I was like, "What the hell? What's going on?" It was crazy. Yeah, I have these dating rules, by the way. Never date anybody who's into... who's an equestrian, someone who likes to ride horses. Never date a horseback rider, never date a dancer, and never date an acapella person. Those are my three. Those are the three you just never want to do. Why? 1. They're obsessed with something that's, by all accounts, useless. 2. All of their hobbies are either extremely expensive or time-consuming, taking them away from you. 3. Half of those hobbies are really intimate with other people that are not you. They're just going to be doing salsa with some suave guy from Latin America who doesn't speak English but is touching all over your person. You don't want to do that, right? So these hobbies are not the same. And then also, you can't do the thing. So, oh, you're at a wedding? Great! Isn't it awesome to date a dancer? No, it's not awesome. You turn into a pole while they are doing actual dancing. Or, oh, you date a singer? Great! Why don't you just sit there and nod and tap your foot while they sing, because they actually know how to sing? So it's like, hobbies can't be done together.

Sam Parr

I never dance at weddings. I just act like I have to go to the bathroom every song. I freaking hate it. I hate what a dance floor is. How much do...

Shaan Puri

You have to... you're like, I find two bathrooms on opposite poles of the venue. I just make laps between them.

Sam Parr

Dude, I don't ever dance. I watched the UFC fight in the toilet the other day, like at a wedding. I don't.

Shaan Puri

that's what you're gay dancing saturday night I watch ufc at like 3 weddings already

Sam Parr

Yeah, I hate going to weddings and going to the dance floor. I just tell Sarah, "Don't even ask me." They're like, "Well, it's fun." I'm like, "No, this is the worst. I don't want to do this. I don't know what to do. I don't like it. It just ain't for me."

Shaan Puri

There's a great little Chris D'Elia clip on YouTube. I don't know if you've seen it, but he goes, "There's no bigger dick move than inviting your friend to your wedding." He says, "If you're doing an out-of-state wedding and you invite me, you know what you just did to me? You cost me money and time. I don't want to be at a wedding." I thought this was very, very true. Alright, new segment or new idea. I have two ideas for you. Would you like to hear about the next Apple, or would you like to hear about the next little side hustle that I think could kind of work? The next Apple or the next side hustle that might kind of work?

Sam Parr

well the second one

Shaan Puri

Alright, just what I expected. Do you know your IQ?

Sam Parr

no of course not

Shaan Puri

ben do you know your iq have you ever kind of iq test

Ben Wilson

I I've done only unofficial iq tests

Sam Parr

what does

Shaan Puri

that mean yeah so

Sam Parr

like a banner ad on a website

Ben Wilson

Yeah, so there's some online tests that are supposed to be better than others. But basically, in order to get your actual IQ, it's supposed to be proctored, and they have someone administer it. You can go take tests online. I took one of the better ones, but it's still not a totally accurate IQ test.

Shaan Puri

okay I ate one of the better arby's the other day so when

Sam Parr

it's got it

Shaan Puri

like that yes

Sam Parr

what what did you get

Shaan Puri

yeah what's your iq

Ben Wilson

it said 132

Shaan Puri

oh that's genius level right

Ben Wilson

no no but it's it's it's smart but not genius

Shaan Puri

so I think you could create a d to c iq brand so I think you could basically same the same playbook that everybody's using for d to c brands right we were just joking about banner ads but yes banner ads facebook ads tabula ads everywhere I think you could optimize a funnel that basically buys clicks for less than a dollar and then converts you know let's call it I don't know whatever 10% of people you need to convert 10% of people to pay you the $25 that it's gonna take or the you know maybe it's the maybe it's maybe it's $99 or something like that you have to figure out some version of the economics that's gonna make sense to make this the math work on the cac versus the the value but I feel like somebody could create a funnel that will get you in why do I think that this will work it's not really economics driven it's just work backwards from what's an ad that I think would work and I think an ad that's like only geniuses can solve this puzzle like I I don't know if you've seen these ads on tiktok that are like people say this puzzle is impossible or this number game is impossible you can't draw a line through these four things without lifting your finger and you're like I bet I could do that that looks doable and you like click it and then now you it tells you to download some game but instead of a game I think it could be basically like an iq game and I think you can basically make a monthly subscription that's like these are iq games or iq tests to get your score for either you or maybe maybe it's maybe we're going after the baby einsteins maybe it's for your kids because I think people wanna know if their kid's a genius more than as an adult it's less less important and so I think somebody could build a d to c iq test that like I don't know exactly how well it'll do but would it surprise you if I told you dude I met this guy and he runs this like facebook funnel that basically takes you down an iq test and then you pay for your results and and like half the people forget to cancel their subscription and the guy makes you know 5,050,000 a month or the guy makes a 100,000 a month doing this would you be shocked if I told you that

Sam Parr

No, in fact, I think you could build a company that could actually make 9 figures, like $100,000,000 or more. Here's why I think that. I've told you about this, but have you ever heard of Gallup? You've definitely heard of Gallup; they're cited in the news, right? They do surveys. Well, they own this company called CliftonStrengths. Have you heard of CliftonStrengths? I think CliftonStrengths...

Shaan Puri

We've talked about it way back in the day, but we should do it again because the pod was way smaller back then. I've done this test, the StrengthsFinder test.

Sam Parr

I don't have all my research, so I'm going off memory. But basically, StrengthsFinder, I think it was a test and then a book, or a book and then a test... something like that.

Shaan Puri

It's a book that has a link to the test inside. So basically, the book is like, you don't even need to read it. The book just has a code. You go to this website, type in this code, and then you take the test. At the end, it gives you your 6 or 7 strengths. It's like, "Oh, you're a futurist." This is like literally tarot card reading to me. Like, "You're a futurist, you're a determined leader, you're a problem solver," or whatever. I don't know what they are, but I took the test and I was like, "Oh, they just gave me 7 generically positive words." Like, "Oh, for sure I can identify with some of these." I'm like, "Great, what does this do?"

Sam Parr

It's a horoscope, but basically, Gallup—the company—is a survey business. They own StrengthsFinder, and Gallup is privately owned. If I remember correctly, four years ago, maybe it was two years ago when I did research on them, I think they're north of $1,000,000,000 in revenue. CliftonStrengthsFinder, I think what it is, is they charge like $40 to $50 for one of these simple assessments. But then they do more heavy-duty consulting where they'll put your whole company through it. During my research, I'm pretty sure that test was making hundreds of millions of dollars a year in revenue because they have thousands of employees. I don't know where they're based—like Minnesota or something. They're just one of these companies that you totally forget about that exists, and you just don't even think about it. But if you look at the traffic of their website and some of the numbers based on news articles, it's a pretty wildly huge company.

Shaan Puri

right is it private or is it public

Sam Parr

It's private. It might have been public at one point, but it's like they have on Wikipedia that says they've got 50 offices. I know they have thousands and thousands of employees, and it's privately owned by, I think, still just the family.

Shaan Puri

Wow, yeah, that's amazing! So, I think you could do something like the **Enterprise Personality Test**—that's what I call it. You could do the personality test, the love languages test, and even an IQ test. I think you could create a **D to C funnel** that would work with these things. I don't know, I'm kind of interested in this. I think this is like... if you're a good internet marketer—actually, not just good; I think you kind of need to be an **amazing** internet marketer. If you're an amazing internet marketer, the world is your oyster. But like, one fun idea that I think somebody could spin up would be these "take a test, get a score" type things, whether it's personality or IQ. Okay, so that's that one. Now, let me tell you my **Apple idea**.

Sam Parr

alright

Shaan Puri

I'm taking a shower today, and that's nice. You're welcome! One of my favorite feelings of the day... I'll give you a list of my favorite feelings. Mostly, I don't have this list, but I got a list of favorite feelings throughout the day. In my top five, two of them, maybe three, come in the bathroom: showers, washing my hands, and taking a poop. I love all three of them. My trainer says this thing, by the way... do you?

Sam Parr

do it in that order that'd be you'd be a freak if you did it in that order

Shaan Puri

It's not a routine in that order. We go the other way, right? There's a method to the back.

Sam Parr

by the way my trainer

Shaan Puri

He has this thing he says, which is like, "Of all my clients, the number one thing people actually struggle with is stress." He goes, "What's the opposite of stress?" and I said, "I don't know, relief?" He replied, "Yeah, relief, satisfaction." He continued, "Think about how many things a day stress you out." I was like, "That's a lot. There are a bunch of things that can stress somebody out." He said, "Think about how many things give you relief in a day." I was kind of struggling to think of anything. He mentioned, "People usually have relief once a day. It's right when they're pooping, and that's the only time they experience this emotion. That's why they're bad at it; they don't practice that emotion very much." I was like, "Wow, that's interesting." So, anyway, back to my story. I love having clean hands after washing them. I love taking a shower, and I love the relief. Alright, great. But when I'm in those situations right now, if I go to my shower, nothing feels special. I don't know; I have a standard showerhead, shampoo, body wash, and a loofah in there because, you know, my wife hooks me up. So this is what I'm working with. For something that I do every day, something that's kind of an important part of my day, I wonder why I think somebody could make an "Apple for the bathroom." What is the company that's going to be the "Apple for the bathroom" going to do? I don't know. Have you ever tried to hack your shower experience to make it more awesome?

Sam Parr

it's really hard try to

Shaan Puri

do things apply things

Sam Parr

I was really interested in different shower heads. I remember researching them on Wirecutter and I bought the fanciest one. It wasn't even that fancy, but it was the best one. I remember it took forever to call a handyman to install it. It was a pain in the ass.

Shaan Puri

Where did you fall? Fall into the trap of installing it, right? It's always the install that's like, you know, "Who's gonna do that?" God, that's enough.

Sam Parr

versus like a a nest a nest was like easy I I did that

Shaan Puri

and same thing with toilets it's like you we've probably all heard that there's these japanese toilets that are amazing that will like you know give you a butt massage or whatever you know they're they're like incredible toilets but who's gonna rip out their toilet and replace it with this fancy one that's a that's a big big overhaul and washing your hands nobody even touches the mirror nobody touches like there's so I think you could build a product that simply says I'm gonna give people relaxation and relief I'm gonna give them motivation and inspiration through products just for the bathroom and you can just nerd out about how to make the bathroom experience amazing like I bought these little eucalyptus like pods that you put in the shower and basically when hot water hits the the pod it like releases like this eucalyptus like kind of like aroma awesome right like the the thing itself is kinda janky like it's not the best product like it's you know in between it gets all soggy it's not great it's like it's only good the first time but the concept is amazing and it's like why isn't there just a better diffuser that's gonna add this like eucalyptus steam into my shower while I'm doing this why isn't there an add on attachment that doesn't require me to replace my shower head but just makes the shower head better why isn't there something that's on my mirror that is motivational and inspirational that's like that looks nice why isn't there a product that's like washing your hands but it's not washing your hands it's like some heat uv bullshit I don't know something that's gonna like make my hands feel clean and toasty why isn't there 8 sleep for the toilet that's a device that sits inside the toilet and measures your pee and your poo and tells you when you need to go see a doctor or know the quality of your hydration or whatever else I think that somebody should build a company I want some somebody who is like that venn diagram between quantified self they like they wanna like optimize they you know the rob dyrdek I am human optimization they're that guy but they're also a hardware nerd and somebody who who has that overlap I just wish that they would create apple for the bathroom so it's I think it's something I wish somebody made because I would buy 100 of dollars' worth of products from a brand that could actually do that well what do you think of idea

Sam Parr

Dude, so I haven't researched a ton of this, but there are two interesting players in this space right now. Interestingly, both of them have come from tier 1 VC-backed businesses that they previously started in traditional, like, "cool kid" areas. The first one, I think, is called "Revolution Bathrooms."

Shaan Puri

made revolution

Sam Parr

Made Revolution started with renovation. I believe it was initiated by Roger Dickey. I think that's his name. His company was called Geekster. He was a successful tech guy who started businesses that have sold for hundreds of millions of dollars. He up and quit this one company, Geekster, that was killing it, and he said, "I'm going to get into the bathroom business." So, it's a little bit different from what you're talking about, but it's interesting. Another one that's actually really cool—have you heard of Block Renovation?

Shaan Puri

they do the same thing right

Sam Parr

Ish, yeah, I believe they do the same thing. But basically, the coolest thing about this is if you go to the website, it looks slick and cool and everything. It almost fits your Venn diagram once. The guy who started it, his name is Luke Sherwin. He's the former founder of Casper. So, he took Casper public, left, and then he started this thing for bathrooms. I think they've brought in $90,000,000 in funding or $50,000,000 in funding—I forget—but it's like close to $100,000,000. I think it's doing really, really well.

Shaan Puri

Yeah, both of these are basically about how to renovate your bathroom so that you get a super nice looking bathroom. In their case, it's also about the kitchen. It's like, just pick from the menu. Here are five amazing bathroom designs; pick one, and then we have people that can install that bathroom for you. It's a turnkey solution. Versus today, the way you do a renovation is like, "Alright, what are you guys thinking for tile?" And then you respond, "I don't know, I never thought about tile. What are the options and how much does each one of these cost?" Then you move on to sinks, and you just sort of have to piecemeal it. Whereas this is like a turnkey bathroom in a box, which is a great idea. This was one of the first ideas we brought up on this show, by the way. I saw this ad and I thought, "This renovation idea is amazing!" I should have just invested in it because back then it was in the seed stage; it was very early. Yeah, both of these have done really well.

Sam Parr

Have you ever tried to buy a bidet? So, what you can do is buy these bidet covers. Basically, it's like a sophisticated toilet seat. And dude, they are so janky! You have like an electrical cord coming...

Shaan Puri

never installed it and in fact broke my toilet trying to install it

Sam Parr

Dude, they're so janky. You have like a cord going from where your electric razor goes, and you're like, "What the... why is this cord going across the room?"

Shaan Puri

like running from the kitchen into my bathroom yeah

Sam Parr

And then you've got this... like stupid hose that goes up to the top of the toilet. It just looks like a science experiment, like it's duct-taped together. It sucks, right? But I've always wanted one, you know? Like, whenever you use...

Shaan Puri

one you know yeah

Sam Parr

I want a real bidet. Yeah, that's sick! That's dope. So, yeah, I'm on board. I think this is the next Apple. That's ambitious—maybe the next company that gets bought by Apple.

Shaan Puri

I didn't say it's the next Apple. I said it's Apple for the bathrooms, meaning it's a company that just cares about design, simplicity of use, and making a really high-quality product. People are willing to pay a premium—way more than you think. They're willing to pay three times more if you can actually pull off that level of quality. You have this place where people go all the time: you have the shower, the toilet, the sink, and the mirror. You have these things to work with, and then you have all the accessories. Oh, maybe this scale that I have in my bathroom is just some random weight scale. Maybe there's a really good version of that that can go with it. You could just cross-sell into all these different categories. But you just say, "We're going to own the bathroom. We're going to make the best products ever for the bathroom." I think if somebody simply took that idea and decided to execute on it for like ten years, you could have a $1,000,000,000 company. The same goes for the Nest thermostat, which was able to sell for $1,000,000,000, right? I think if you can actually pull off this thing that's in every home, and with a bathroom, you've got like three or four in every home. It's like you have this thing that today everybody kind of ignores and just treats as an afterthought.

Sam Parr

no I think that's dope I'm in you wanna do one more or what

Shaan Puri

I want to talk about one other concept. Do you have one? We could do one of yours if you want. No?

Sam Parr

if you

Shaan Puri

I want to do one. Alright, I gave a talk at Hustle Con with this phrase, and in my mind I was like, "Oh yeah, we've already talked about that." But then I thought, "Wait a minute, no, that was just at Hustle Con." I don't know, there were like a couple hundred people in the room at my breakout talk, so most people have not heard this concept.

Sam Parr

the the one on selling a company

Shaan Puri

It was the one on how to sell your company. In general, it's really about how to handle a part of business that you don't do often and maybe you don't have the experience in. Most people who become business owners or CEOs are great at product development, marketing, and finance. However, what you're not good at are tasks that you only do once in a while, like fundraising or mergers and acquisitions (M&A). These are large, one-off transactions that are very important and very expensive. You don't want to get them wrong, but you also don't have the experience doing them. On the other side, when you're fundraising, the investor talks to hundreds of people like you every month. They're getting tons of experience, so it's a very asymmetric skill set. You don't really know how to negotiate like them, and you don't know what clauses are standard and what are not. The same thing applies to M&A. You're talking to someone who does M&A for a living and has done hundreds of deals, while you may not know the first thing about it. So, here's the solution that most people have: if you're really big, you can afford a banker. Did you guys use a banker when you sold? I don't think so. You may have, but I had hired advisors.

Sam Parr

I had hired one and then I disliked him so I fired him so I ended up being the banker

Shaan Puri

Right, and the same thing when we sold. I was the banker, but I had a banker who could kind of give me some free advice from time to time.

Sam Parr

This amazing guy, a really good lawyer, was like a huge thing. Although I do see the value in a banker, I do think that a good banker is totally worth a fee. A good lawyer is 100% needed.

Shaan Puri

Right, this guy Dick Filipini, he was amazing. Actually, he was a banker that helped me, but we were too small for his normal deals. He does the $100,000,000+ deals, and we were way under that. So, basically, I was like, "Okay, well, I could maybe do a boutique banker." But again, which one? I don't know who's good and who's not. You said you had a great lawyer. Cool, I got a lawyer. Is my lawyer great? Are they okay? Are they good? How am I supposed to assess this? And by the time you figure out if your lawyer was good or not in a transaction, it's...

Sam Parr

too late

Shaan Puri

It's too late; it's done. The same thing goes for tax strategy or negotiation—there are all these different components. I had talked about how this process is like fundraising. Fundraising is usually an intense sprint; it's a couple of months where you work really hard. It becomes your main focus. At the end of the day, you're trying to get to this amazing end. I made the comparison: it's like birthing a baby. You go through this labor process, and then by the end, you have the thing you wanted. Just like when you're having a baby, you might have a doula. A doula is someone who is not your doctor—your doctor would be like your lawyer. They're not your nurse, which would be like your CPA. A doula is just someone who's there to coach you and guide you. They've seen the birth of hundreds of babies, whereas this might be your first. I talked about how you need a deal doula. If you're going to do a deal, a transaction, or fundraising, you need a deal doula.

Sam Parr

a deal doula

Shaan Puri

It's different than a mentor. A mentor is this general thing in life that's like going to be your kind of like your, you know, the better version of your dad. A deal doula is specific. It's for this period of time and it's around one specific problem or process that you're going through. I talked about how when I sold my last company, I had these five deal doulas I started with, and it eventually ended up being these two that I was working with the most. But I talked to five people.

Sam Parr

and who else

Shaan Puri

Yeah, there was this guy, Fuad, who I talked to. He gave me great advice. He told me one thing that each one of them mentioned, which was really important. So, that guy Dick was one of them, but for example, Fuad told me, "You need to..." I was so excited. I said, "Look, we got these guys interested. They're about to give us a term sheet tomorrow." He was sort of chuckling and said, "Sure." I asked, "Oh, you don't think they'll do it?" He replied, "It'll happen. It's just that every timeline you think of is wrong. Everything they say is going to fall through and then come back, and then half fall through again." He explained, "This is the normal M&A process. You might have an outlier where it all goes smoothly, but if you're going to have a normal M&A process, you should expect these bumps and bruises. It's like going through contractions; there are painful ups and downs during the process." He also said, "You need to turn your company into a giant buy button." I asked, "What do you mean?" He explained, "You know when you go to Amazon, it's like one-click checkout? You think because these guys are giving you a term sheet, you're at the end. This is when you're going to have to sprint the hardest." He asked, "Let me see your data room." I said, "Oh yeah, we're working on it." He replied, "Wrong answer, bucko! You shouldn't be at lunch with me; you should be turning your company into a buy button. You need everything so organized, so precise, ready for them to answer all of their questions."

Sam Parr

I show you my data room

Shaan Puri

you did yeah

Sam Parr

I had a fire data room with this woman named Edie. Edie works with me and she's probably in her sixties. When I hired her, she was great, but she didn't really know how to use technology. It would be like me and her on the phone with HubSpot. HubSpot would have like five representatives, then they would have six lawyers who are probably $2 an hour apiece, and then they would have six accountants. So, this meeting cost them $50,000, and it would just be Edie and I. They would be asking us questions or requesting different documents, and we would say, "Oh wait, we'll get it for you." I remember them having a list, and Edie didn't know how to take a screenshot on a computer. I would just hear her constantly with her phone, and every once in a while, she would break it out. Their phone was taking pictures of the screen. I would end up messaging her, "Edie, put your phone on silent. I know what you're doing." She was just taking pictures, and we would...

Shaan Puri

You know, we talked about fierce nerds. Edie is like a fierce grandmother. I would go to your office and Edie would be like, "Oh, how's your daughter?" She knows her name. She's like, "Remember my daughter's name? Show me pictures." She was so kind and cuddly; she's obsessed. Then she'd be like, "You submitted your invoice wrong, bitch!" Like, you know what we're doing. "Keep this shit organized. We're running a tight ship around here." I was like, "Oh wow, how did you find this woman?" Because I was like, she's like the polar opposite of you. She was so needed for what you guys had as your operation.

Sam Parr

I'm always really good at finding those people. She worked in banking for a long time and was actually a really successful banking professional. She comes off as this really nice, naive woman, but it's not even a little bit true. She's not sharky, but she'll get you because she worked in banking in Japan, where she was helping companies go public, I think at Morgan Stanley. So, she's like a shark.

Shaan Puri

you're like say no more yeah

Sam Parr

And then she raised her daughter. She had a daughter and decided not to work while raising her. She came to me and said, "I don't really need the money, but I want a job to prove to my young daughter, who just graduated college, that I'm a badass and that women can be badasses." I was like, "Oh yeah, cool! You're hired. I love that." She ended up being amazing. I remember during the due diligence process, I had to teach her how to use Dropbox and some pretty basic computer stuff, like how to copy and paste. Then she bought a course on Udemy and stayed up all night mastering it. She said, "Alright, I know how to do it now." But if I didn't show her how to do something, I would see her taking a screenshot. She would have her phone up, and you could hear a click. I was like, "Edi, they could see this." Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

Shaan Puri

She's amazing! I don't know what she's doing now, but is she available? I need to hire her. Is she still working with you guys?

Sam Parr

yeah she's still there

Shaan Puri

Amazing! I would have thought, you know, normally in these acquisitions they don't bring on the finance team or whatever. But that's amazing! I would never let her go; she's so good. Two is the most impressive, honestly. I like you, but she was the most impressive person at The Hustle.

Sam Parr

like she was wonderful man

Shaan Puri

people know you they know charlie you know steph she was the most impressive person there

Sam Parr

yeah she was wonderful

Shaan Puri

I don't even know when we're talking about

Sam Parr

this oh deal doula deal doula

Shaan Puri

Here's the thing: I don't know if it's a business idea, but I know that if you're going to do a transaction, you need somebody like this. Every time I've done one of these things, I need this person. Here's what they teach me how to do: they teach me how to use the lawyers, they teach me how to use the accountants, and they teach me how to do the negotiation. They've been through hundreds of these, so they know what to expect. They can emotionally coach you when...

Sam Parr

you're like going through ups

Shaan Puri

And downs, they're your therapist. They're your advisor on the business side of things and negotiation. But that's honestly the least; usually, that's pretty obvious about what you should do there. They're your speechwriter and your copywriter as you prepare to write a pitch deck or a follow-up email, or whatever it is. The most important thing is they teach you how to use expensive lawyers and accountants. Because if you just go to a lawyer and you say, "What should I do?" you're going to end up with a document that's basically the Constitution. It's like, "Oh great, you lawyered the shit out of this," but that wasn't what we needed in our business case. If you defer too much to the lawyer, they're going to over-lawyer things. If you don't listen to the lawyer, you're going to have too much liability. How do you find that line? That judgment is the most important thing, and judgment is something you can't really hack. There are no shortcuts to judgment. The closest thing you can get to it is to partner up or borrow somebody else's judgment—one of these deal doulas. The same thing goes for the fundraising side. You see a term sheet, and you don't know all these terms. What do they mean? Should I agree to this liquidation preference? They have this clawback thing—what is this? Should I agree? A deal doer is the one who can kind of teach you how to do that.

Sam Parr

or I love that

Shaan Puri

You know, my tax person's suggesting this and they're going to say, "Don't do that." It's going to... Yes, that saves you in taxes, but it's going to add deal risk over here because it's going to introduce delays and complexity that you don't want to have.

Sam Parr

that's a really good

Shaan Puri

It's been a really good idea to me. I'm like, I don't think there's a business because normally these are successful business people. That's the only person you can get to do this, and they don't want money for this. They're just doing it because they want to help you, typically. Maybe somebody could make a business out of this, but even if they don't, my advice to any founder out there is: if you're going through either a fundraising or an M&A process, make sure you have your deal dealers to keep you sane and keep you smart about how you're going to go through the process.

Sam Parr

Dude, there are so many things that I didn't even know. For example, I didn't even know to ask about certain things when people talk to me about selling their companies. I'd be like, "Well, you really want to optimize for time to close. You want to close as quickly as possible." In my head, I was like, "Why does it matter? They gave you a thing." But then I realized, just shit happens. For example, Brian Halligan, the CEO of HubSpot, got into a near-death accident five days after the deal closed. I'm like, if that happened at any other time, or if the economy changed, just shit happens. Or like, the person leading the deal quits. Stuff changes all the time. Another thing that I didn't even notice to look for is that I would get these offers from private equity firms for small businesses. HubSpot has a board of directors; they're a huge company. They would say, "Well, we present the Letter of Intent (LOI) before we give it to you to our board of directors." I was like, "This isn't gonna go through, yada yada yada." Well, once the board approves it, the likelihood that it's going to get done is quite high because the employees have to look good to the board. They can't just back out. Whereas you have another guy who's just a smaller business, and it's just the founder leading the deal. It's like, "Oh, he doesn't give a fuck; he'll bail at any moment."

Sam Parr

Like he just... he's like, you know, it's their money. The dynamics are different. There are all these things that I didn't quite understand, but now I know. It's really hard to learn unless you've been there because you don't even know what to expect.

Shaan Puri

Ask with our last deal, we took the second highest offer. We turned down the top offer and chose the second one. Why was that? Well, there were a bunch of intangible reasons. Maybe we preferred one over the other, but personally, I left about $1.5 to $2 million on the table by taking the second deal over the first deal. That was a lot of money to me; it wasn't small. That was meaningful. One of the reasons I did it was that our team wanted to go with the deal, and that was only going to happen with the second one. That's probably the biggest reason. There were some smaller reasons, like the commute and stuff like that. But the other reason was the likelihood to close. They told me, "Look, yes, we've been a pain in the ass in negotiations. We're sticklers about this stuff; we don't move super fast. But the good news is that means we've thought it through and we've got our approvals already. Once we sign this thing, we will close, and we will close on time." He said, "That's the good news. The bad news is, leading up to it, we're not the quickest, fastest dealmakers who are going to promise you everything. We're only going to promise you what we can deliver."

Sam Parr

that's the ideal we're gonna do it slow that's the that's the ideal setup by the way

Shaan Puri

And I didn't really know how to value it at the time. He was pitching it to me as a value, and I was like, "Yeah, whatever. The other guys are offering more; who do I care?" But in retrospect, that actually was quite an important thing because...

Sam Parr

it's very important

Shaan Puri

A 100% of the second-best deal is better than no deal from the best offer, right? Or someone who's going to try to retrade the deal at the last minute. That's one of the worst signs you can have. It's when somebody comes back in the 11th hour trying to retrade the deal. They told us that these guys were like, "We're not going to retrade the deal; we are going to close." So that's the good news. The bad news is it takes us longer to get to the term sheet, and we're not necessarily going to be the top offer. We're going to offer you the best we can, and now I've learned that that's actually quite important in this process. But as a first-time entrepreneur going through it, I didn't know how to weigh that. You also gave me some good advice, which was, "Tell them everything. Tell them upfront all the reasons that they shouldn't buy you. All the skeletons in the closet, drag them out once." Okay, not in the very first meeting, but once they're interested and it's getting to where, "Hey, we're going to make an offer," or "We're making an offer," say, "Before we do that, I'm going to literally brainstorm and try to figure out every reason why I think you maybe shouldn't do this deal." You know, "Hey, we don't have our ducks in a row on this. This is an unknown; this is like a contract dispute we're in." But whatever they may be, you have to drag those out and basically let somebody run away then. Because it is far less painful and less wasteful to let them run away than to have them find it out later. No deal closes without the finding of it, so they're going to find it out no matter what. Your instinct is, "Oh, don't tell them." That's always the first-time entrepreneur's instinct. It was my instinct the first time. Then somebody gave me this advice, and you gave it to me also, which was, "No, no, no, don't do that. Just tell them what's great and what's bad about your business. You're going to get in bed together; they need to know both sides of it."

Sam Parr

and if you lie you're getting sued anyway like you're you're

Shaan Puri

You definitely can't lie. That's obvious. But you can't even just hope they don't see it or don't find it because they're going to see it or find it. And then...

Sam Parr

they're gonna say and and they'll say what the fuck what

Shaan Puri

else was

Sam Parr

that about yeah what else did you tell me

Shaan Puri

And so, it was actually a **mega trust builder** to do that, you know, when we sold the first company. Those are some of the things that you've kind of only learned through these deals. You don't learn that except through either experience or talking with people who are experienced. So anyways, that's my rant on deal dealers. I think it's a very underrated thing.

Sam Parr

we went we've covered it all we've we this has been a this has been a roller coaster of an episode

Shaan Puri

I saw a comment on YouTube about a guy unsubscribing. He said, "I'm unsubscribing. The last few episodes haven't been great." I replied to him.

Sam Parr

I said good yeah you said good some other guy was like man what

Shaan Puri

Do you talk about these guys? I said, "Over my dead body! I now work for you." You know, Big Booty 357 on YouTube? I now work for you. Dude, one guy is motivated beyond belief to come with a fire every time.

Sam Parr

one guy wrote these guys are great, overall and I was like oh that's a good dig

Shaan Puri

You got me! That's great. That's an amazing one. It's... remember, petty court? It's petty court, and court is in session. That's how I feel when I read the YouTube comments.

Sam Parr

yeah that that that was a good one the comments are actually quite good

Shaan Puri

You had such a funny, funny joke in a group chat where it was the "no offense" thing and then...

Sam Parr

the

Shaan Puri

there was another idiot with all due respect

Sam Parr

respect

Shaan Puri

you're an ugly dude with all due respect

Sam Parr

It's like when people start sentences saying, "I'm not racist, but..." It's like, oh, okay. The other thing that I hate...

Shaan Puri

when it's

Sam Parr

Dumbass. Yeah, the other thing I hate when people say is, "Well, at least he's honest." I'm like, what? But his honest opinion sucks! I don't care if he's honest. Like, I don't... he's a... he's a... he's...

Shaan Puri

a straight shooter so you're shooting bullshit though

Sam Parr

Yeah, yeah, like he's a straight shooter. But what you say is stupid, and I just... you know what I mean? It's like dumb. I hate it. I've always hated that excuse.

Shaan Puri

oh man good times alright we're